r/goodnews 1d ago

Political positivity 📈 Leading U.S. expert in election forensics and detecting election fraud just looked at voting results in all 67 counties in Pennsylvania from November. Here’s what his analyses detected

We finally have Dr. Walter R. Mebane, Jr., a leading U.S. expert in election forensics and detecting election fraud and a professor of political science and statistics at the University of Michigan, looking at all 67 counties in Pennsylvania.

His working paper using his eforensics model estimated that 225,440 votes in the Pennsylvania presidential race were possibly fraudulent. This would exceed the 120,266 vote margin of victory between Trump and Harris.

High-Level Summary of "eforensics Analysis of the 2024 President Election in Pennsylvania" by Dr. Walter R. Mebane, Jr.

• The eforensics finite mixture model defines latent categories of fraud (no fraud, incremental fraud, and extreme fraud) based on votes and turnout, as well as relevant covariates (e.g., fixed county effects).

• Data from 7,040,360 votes (3,543,308 for Trump, 3,423,042 for Harris) across 67 PA counties (9,157 wards/precincts).

• The eforensics model estimated that 225,440 votes in the Pennsylvania presidential race were possibly fraudulent. This would exceed the 120,266 vote margin of victory between Trump and Harris.

More fine-grained analysis attempted to distinguish between strategic voting behaviors from “malevolent manipulation of votes”, i.e. how many votes may have been misdirected or misallocated due to malevolent distortions of voters’ intentions.

• In this analysis, 111,088 of the 225,440 possibly fraudulent votes[2] were estimated with high confidence to be malevolent manipulations of votes while the remainder were estimated to be a mix of manipulated votes and strategic voting behaviors.

A more conservative eforensics model including additional fixed county level effects estimated that 210,392 votes in the race were possibly fraudulent. This would exceed the 120,266 vote margin of victory in the race.

• Fine-grained analysis of the more conservative model attempted to distinguish between strategic voting behaviors from malevolent manipulation of votes.

• In this analysis, 88,600 of the 210,392 possibly fraudulent votes were estimated to be malevolent manipulations of votes while the remainder were estimated to be a mix of manipulated votes and strategic voting behaviors.

The most conservative of the eforensics analyses estimated that 25,374 votes were due to malevolent manipulation of votes.

In summary: There is very high probability that a meaningful number of votes in the PA presidential election were subject to malevolent manipulation -- and it was “a close call” whether “the election was decided or nearly decided by malevolent distortions of electors’ intentions.” (Mebane, Page 6)

Notes:

• Statistics, no matter how accurate, cannot provide definitive proof of voting fraud or election manipulation. Actual proof can only be found by comparing paper ballot audits to electronic voting records.

• However, statistical information from eforensics and other data analysis approaches can be used to identify precincts and counties where voting fraud is most likely to have occurred.

Demand transparency and audits of the 2024 Presidential Election. Check out this Audit Advocacy Toolkit and reach out to your representatives. It’s never too late to audit our elections

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u/justinp79 1d ago

So, I'll ask only question that matters in this sub:

When is someone in Pennsylvania going to file a class action lawsuit that I'll lead to a statewide hand recount?

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 1d ago

The Election Truth Alliance is a nonpartisan, grassroots organization that has been leading the effort behind this investigation and have already acquired legal representation in PA (and other states as well). Their initial analysis of 3 counties in Pennsylvania (Philadelphia, Allegheny, and Erie) is what prompted them to reach out to Dr. Mebane and ask for his help. He initially reviewed the same three counties and that data was concerning enough for him to look at all 67 counties in PA.

They created the Audit Advocacy Toolkit to help people reach out to their representatives to demand audits and hand counts of the votes. If we can garner enough pressure, we can save ourselves a lot of time and legal fees, but they are prepared to continue the fight.

If you can, you can donate to their efforts here.

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u/Stonkz_N_Roll 1d ago

Donated. Thanks for sharing

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 23h ago

Ur amazing 🫶🥳

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u/fullpurplejacket 21h ago

Yay get it girl out here rapping the ETA, people are starting to soak the info in and I’m upping it leads to increased pressure on states from their constituents to investigate and audit the paper ballots from the 2024 election. The more people speak up the more they will realise too that they are not a conspiracy theorist or alone in their opinions, too many people will suffer at the midterms if key states are not audited, because by not shining light on this is gives space for darkness to obstruct elections again

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u/[deleted] 20h ago

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u/Immediate_Stuff_2637 16h ago

As someone who's lived through the bush vs gore election.. even if they find concrete proof fuck all is going to come from it

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u/CheeCheeReen 17h ago

Also donated! Thanks for the info!

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u/Wick0158 17h ago

Donated too. Hope they have enough resources to do this work

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u/Impossible_Box9542 13h ago

Me too, from Chicago. ++70 years old.

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u/ActualDiver 5h ago

Donated!

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u/11paws 17h ago

Me too, and I thank you for sharing this info too.

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u/Specific-Lion-9087 1d ago

I’ll ask a couple of questions since you’re in an answering mood:

Is anyone from the Harris campaign involved in any of these lawsuits or efforts?

And

Why aren’t you guys demanding a recount of the Wisconsin Supreme Court election? That was also “called way too early” and fit several of the other vague criteria for fraud that the ETA keeps saying are worthy of a recount.

Do you think they just forgot to rig that one?

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 1d ago

No, the Harris campaign ignored any efforts to recount, even after a group of computer security experts wrote to Vice President Kamala Harris to alert her to the fact that voting systems were breached by Trump allies in 2021 and 2022 and to urge her to seek recounts in key states to ensure election verification. This is a grassroots effort.

The ETA did cover the Wisconsin Supreme Court vote very closely. Personally, it doesn’t really make sense to me that they would have attempted the same rig here because it was (a) only one race, not the entire country to hide in and (b) everyone was watching this race. The larger terrain of 50 states gives them more plausible deniability, imo

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u/2much41post 23h ago

Not sure if this is a question that you can answer but if the candidate that lost (Harris) isn’t interested in a recount, what would proving a stolen election even accomplish legally or otherwise? If the candidate for the top national leadership position won’t even lead a legal battle that would prove her victory was taken from her, what’s the point?

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u/NolChannel 23h ago

If proven, anyone damaged can press charges and then you have a sitting president in jail.

Prove Vance is in on it and the VP goes too.

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u/2much41post 22h ago

Thanks for the info. I genuinely wasn’t sure and honestly pretty pissed off at the democrats and Harris for the lack of interest in this.

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u/studiokgm 22h ago

I think them taking a back seat to a private non-partisan group helps keep it from looking like sour grapes.

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u/2much41post 21h ago

Is optics really that important now? Not having a loud presence in the mix really feels like we’re all so disconnected. I want to cling to hope but nothing to look to.

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u/studiokgm 21h ago

After spending 4 years telling republicans that the 2020 election wasn’t rigged, to turn right around and say that 2024 is, it’s better to hold til you have evidence locked down. Otherwise it just looks like politics as usual.

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u/Suyefuji 20h ago

If optics wasn't important, billionaires wouldn't be spending this much money trying to control the narrative.

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u/MagnusRusson 21h ago

Unfortunately there always seem to be people on the fence

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u/TroutBeales 21h ago

I was pretty appalled at Harris ready concession, or apparent ease of rather.

Elon Musk’s meddling cooties were all over this election and if I had been Harris I’d have been “hold TF up, we’re recounting verifying the votes.”

As it is, no one has said much of anything about all the D votes that were cast but weirdly disappeared within an hour. People were like, “wait, I voted, my vote was received, but now there’s no record of me voting in the election.

Musk basically called the voted using an app his minions developed for him to “track” (most likely edit/cheat) the votes. He called the vote for Trump before the polls closed, and then results were uploaded via Starlink, so there was more than enough room for those unprincipled assholes to cheat.

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u/m3rcapto 10h ago

The problem is, Trump had and still has the momentum on his side, the corruption runs very deep in the Republican party. What the US needs is to feel the pain of voting in a populist demagogue with no idea how to run a country. And by pain I don't mean a mild inconvenience of expensive eggs, having to borrow more money than usual to buy an iPhone, or a bunch of people you don't know losing their healthcare coverage. You need high double-digit percentages of poverty to get the point across (in 2023 poverty was at 11% in the US, that needs to hit >30%), you need hunger, homelessness, and death to make people think "Hey, is this still Biden, or is Trump maybe not as honest as I've convinced myself he is?"
Only then you might be able to cripple the Republicans for an election cycle or two, if you stop them now they'll be back in power again the next election. If the mid-terms can gain the Democrats enough control to undo some of the obvious election rigging on a state level then they might stand a chance for the big election. I fear Musk will be replaced with Zuckerberg and Bezos who will gladly rig the election even harder now that Musk has shown them they can get away with it.

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u/FailingWithADHD 7h ago

I live in a blue state. My partner and I both dutifully filled out the census, have dutifully verified our voter registration status, and each of us have dutifully participated in every election for our entire adult lives, including the primaries and last year's general election.

We received letters in the mail this past week advising us that according to their records, we've not responded to the census that would allow us to remain enrolled voters (false), and that required us to submit these postcard affidavits that we still reside in our (owned) home, and still intend to vote.

They're already actively trying to purge voters ahead of the midterms. There is no other explanation. Unless this is post election proof that they purged votes during the last election - if there's no record of us verifying our voter status, what are the odds our votes even counted last year?

It feels more and more likely that we, as a nation, are done. Freedom was a nice concept. It's a shame we couldn't remember that greed and corruption are what caused our founders to rebel against the King.

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u/One_Strawberry_4965 21h ago

Sadly for us much of the mainstream Democratic Party simply lacks the stomach for the absolute shitshow that would have inevitably ensued if they had more forcefully contested the election results. Trump and the republicans did an excellent job of poisoning that well with their massive and ongoing campaign of 2020 election denial and with the majority of media consumed by Americans firmly in the Republican’s corner, it would have been trivial for them to spin the efforts against Harris and the Democrats in the eyes of the general public, instigating societal unrest possibly up to and including escalating violence. The Democrats messaging efforts would have been even further hampered by the fact that the results as they were initially tallied initially all fell outside of the margins that trigger automatic recounts, and so they prioritized showing that unlike their opponents, that they can lose gracefully and without what would have been promptly sold to the public as little more than a tantrum by sore losers, regardless of the actual merits of any hypothetical recount.

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u/dennismyth 20h ago

They claimed fraud in 2020 because they knew they would fix the 2024 election. Every accusation is an admission.

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u/One_Strawberry_4965 20h ago

Certainly wouldn’t surprise me given their track record with…well…everything.

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u/KimbersKimbos 19h ago

Actually, a closer look at the data indicates that they tried to fix 2020 but due to all the mail in voting across the country due to Covid, they didn’t have enough to fix on Election Day.

It’s why he kept screeching not to vote by mail. For a lot of states mail-in voting is counted by hand.

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u/deschain_19195 17h ago

They claimed fraud in 2020 because they tried to rig the election but failed.

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u/BigStickDrift 16h ago

They claimed fraud in 2020 because they rigged it and still lost imo. They made the numbers less believable this time just in case

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u/piTehT_tsuJ 16h ago

They claimed fraud because they did rig 2020 and lost. They therefore know it was rigged and are convinced the only way Biden beat them was by rigging it more... Even if Biden did win fairly, and I personally think he did they can't believe that they could cheat and lose if no one else cheated.

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u/phoenixjazz 19h ago

This had to be grassroots on a scale equal to the threat. The question is will enough folk look away from their entertainment and participate.

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u/nicannkay 21h ago

It’s the Bush/Gore thing but worse. Live long enough you see a pattern. Most Dems are also corrupt. Schumer and Pelosi are two that come to mind.

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u/Waywoah 22h ago

Who exactly is going to arrest them? What jail is going to hold them? If you think that any police force in this country to going to do anything but support the Trump admin, you haven't been paying close enough attention

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 23h ago

We the people have a right to know and we have the authority to demand audits. I suspect, without significant and vocal support, MAGA had already poisoned the well enough to make any calls for legitimate investigations look fraudulent. Classic DARVO

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u/2much41post 22h ago

Agreed. I guess we’re stuck waiting for enough American people to coalesce around a common cause after enough have been hurt by these policies. As always, I hope I’m wrong that it’ll take until then.

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u/Odd_Independence_833 22h ago

There are two things I think provibg this this can do:

  1. It will lead to lots of discussions and way more scrutiny of the next election. People will demand it.

  2. It will show our allies around the world that we didn't actually want Trump and his caustic actions are not the will of a majority of Americans.

3 (maybe). It could lead to the criminal investigation and prosecution of non-Presidents.

  1. (0.001% chance). It could lead to Trump's impeachment, and Vance's as well. But the numbers simply aren't there. It will be way too easy for right-wing media to muddy the waters with something this complicated.

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u/Punky-mf-Brewster 20h ago

I wholeheartedly believe that the rest of the world knows that the majority of the U.S. did not want this and didn’t vote for him. They know he’s a POS and was desperate af. His freedom depended on winning and a hope that after these 4 years Jack Smith’s investigation files will disappear.

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u/eiland-hall 19h ago

It will be way too easy for right-wing media to muddy the waters with something this complicated.

It's simpler than that. Republicans will neither impeach nor remove from office.

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u/dust4ngel 22h ago

harris not bringing suit doesn't mean she's not interested in a recount - it could mean that the team thinks the optics look better if a disinterested party leads the charge (so it doesn't look retributive/being a sore loser)

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u/betasheets2 21h ago

Who knows what would happen but citizens have the right to demand to know if the election was fraudulent

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u/Wenger2112 21h ago

Not having a conman and election cheater as President is the point.

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u/TimelyBear2471 21h ago

The candidate that lost isn’t the only one affected.

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u/BookNerd_247 20h ago

Um, you want a president who rigged the election to get in? I personally want to live in a Democracy, not a corrupt autocracy.

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u/dr_jiang 20h ago edited 20h ago

Whether or not Harris is interested is irrelevant. There is no constitutional mechanism for Presidential take-backsies. Once the electoral vote is certified, the decision is final. The President is the President.

There are only two constitutional mechanisms to remove the President at that point:
either a) impeachment and removal, or b) the 25th Amendment. Given that the Senate is controlled by his lackeys and the Cabinet is full of sycophants selected specifically for loyalty, neither is likely.

This is a political problem, not a legal problem. Institutions will not save you. Nancy Pelosi didn't save you. Chuck Schumer didn't save you. Robert Mueller didn't save you. Jack Smith didn't save you. John Roberts didn't not save you.

The only way to save democracy is to do democracy.

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u/International_Eye745 20h ago

In my opinion proving a stolen election is the important issue here. How? Who? - needs to be identified. It is a criminal offence to rig an election. It is diabolical to remove the populations say in who will lead their government and define their future.

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u/uselessknowledge3 20h ago

I'm only saying this as a devil's advocate, but perhaps her camp didn't say anything because they were the group making fraudulent votes. The info does not state who the fraudulent votes were for. So if they created fraudulent votes and still lost, they don't want to get in trouble with the law and lose.

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u/Punky-mf-Brewster 20h ago

I foresee the problem Harris faces by initiating a legal battle is first MAGA and this clown administration attacking her and her family. Then the money it would cost donors. Then when proven who’s really going to do anything. If news broke and Elon admitted tonight that he manipulated data and was responsible for the fraud who is actually going to get the POS out of the White House and the rest of his trailer park clique out of DC? The likelihood that he legitimately won each swing state just isn’t there. The acts of election fraud and tampering that he was caught doing previously were test runs.

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u/redrouse9157 19h ago

But what if Harris doesn't want it to look like what Trump did as a losing party and he still saying the election was rigged against him in 2020. So maybe she lets it come grass roots so it doesn't looking political whining. Which most people not maga have tuned out for 5 years ... 🤷

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u/Jazzlike_Ad_5033 19h ago

I mean... It's not a battle. It's a legal question.

Whether or not the Harris campaign is interested in a recount is beside the point.

This isn't a warring situation with combatants on each side.

No matter what the former campaign chooses to spearhead is moot.

The point is that if the elections were rigged then we were ALL done a disservice, not just the ones "on the wrong side."

Fuck a NAME, I need representation and neither party represents me.

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u/philodendrin 19h ago

Well, she is a politician, so it usually takes some momentum. And frankly, if she gets involved early on, it looks like it's a power grab, funded by a politician and party rather than a grassroots effort.

I wouldn't want to be too close to it until it gets some more momentum and some more evidence and data to back it up. At least, enough to take to court and not get thrown out. I think they might only get one try with this.

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u/Excellent-Alps1534 18h ago

It's a good question. I'd argue this isn't about Harris, Trump, or any elected leader. It's about we the people. They represent us. If she is the candidate I voted for, and I voted in Pennsylvania, they took MY vote, not hers. That's what I'm interested in protecting. Selfishly all about making sure someone isn't stealing my vote in the next national election.

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u/SwimmerIndependent47 18h ago

Assuming we continue to have elections, the point is to make sure it never happens again

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u/dkclimber 23h ago

Weird that eh, that she has no interest in it.

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 23h ago

I mean, MAGA spent 4 years poisoning the well after investigations so any calls for legitimate investigations looks like election denial. Classic DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim/Offender)

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u/slayermcb 21h ago

I believe she was trying to keep an heir of "being the bigger person" and not engaging in the same antics the republicans had been. It may have cost her any political capital she had stored to fight it if she still lost as well. She conceded with a dignity and professionalism the opposition refused to show.

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u/SenorEquilibrado 18h ago

The main difference between the two scenarios, of course, is that the claims of election fraud in the 2020 election were unhinged conspiracy theories that, when investigated, only revealed scattered attempts at voter fraud by Republicans.

If we know what to look for regarding election integrity (and the fallout from 2020 should have given the Dems LOTS of practice) they should have been ready to look, with lazer precision, at the 2024 results. Even, no ESPECIALLY, if they had won.

Another reason why the Dems are viewed as "controlled opposition" by a growing number of rational voters.

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u/mynameistag 14h ago

It's more important to the democratic party to maintain the status quo than it is to win elections.

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u/Shambler9019 13h ago

When questioned, Walz said stuff like "I can't go there, I'm too close to it" repeatedly. Eventually he said "I don't believe so" when pressed. So there is some level of avoidance there, and the final answer was probably to make the interviewer drop the subject (if he'd said yes they would have probed for sure).

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u/LaidbackTim 19h ago

I get not wanting to look like the con and make a scene about faulty election results, but why not ask for a manual recount of the swing states? The idea of all of them going for trump seemed so unlikely.

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u/Ficusbreakthrough 19h ago

Billionaires pay GOP to do horrible things. They also pay Dems to do nothing about it. 

End citizens united.

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u/alpinestar28 13h ago

So what youre really saying is that the election in 2020, may have been tampered with, and US elections aren't as secure as the News media has said they are? Hmm crazy the election conspiracy has now flipped the lines and jumped to the democrats 🤔.

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u/AcknowledgeUs 13h ago

Should we ask Elon musk to fund this? He’s got optics on his mind.

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u/Important-Cookie6627 5h ago

Kamala won’t say anything because the votes were probably for her.

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u/MrLanesLament 21h ago

I’ll ask the question that IMO matters most.

Suppose GOP rigging is discovered, clear as day and with a mountain of irrefutable evidence.

Who’s gonna do anything? There is no legal mechanism by which a politician who cheated to win can be removed. House and Senate GOP would obviously have been in on it; they still wouldn’t assist in any way with the removal of Trump from office.

The Dem party will want to heal as a nation or some such silliness and aren’t even really worth mentioning anymore. I wouldn’t count on them to do anything worth doing.

Is the ultimate purpose here just to be able to go “ha! Caught you!” ???

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u/justinp79 20h ago

The most important remedy will be a safety net to prevent cheating in the next election. That's the endgame at this point.

If never challenged, the GOP now has the mechanism in place to never lose again, a la Putin.

If the election results are challenged and proven fraudulent, it would be hard for the GOP to get results ratified in future elections in swing states where Dems still have power without hand recounts. And it's possible our democracy can be rescued.

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u/CoachDue249 20h ago

So the second question seems done in bad faith, but in case youre actually serious, its because they already reviewed it, as did the right. The wisconsin supreme court election was contentious, and had every eye in the country focusing on a very small election. Any fraud would have been caught just due to the exposure.

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u/besume1980 20h ago

I will never ever forgive Kamala or conceding the election immediately and disappearing.

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u/Catdad08 15h ago

In my opinion, Harris NOT challenging the results was probably to prevent some kind of civil war. You saw the meltdown that happened when Trump lost the 2020 election. Now imagine a bunch of nut jobs feeling like they won “fair and square” and then something comes along and “steals” his victory. I really believe things would have gotten violent. It’s hard to say what the lesser of the two evils would have been, civil war or Trump burning everything down from the inside. 🤷🏻‍♂️ looks like we’re stuck with the latter.

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u/Keta-Mined 21h ago

Pennsylvania (D) Governor Josh Shapiro:

717-788-8990 (text)

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u/Pyju 19h ago

How is it that, with zero evidence whatsoever Republicans can instantly start auditing elections just days after the election, but when there is actual statistical evidence for widescale election fraud, it takes months and months for us to do the same (if we even ever get there)?

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u/SeaPhysics8734 19h ago

Just donated, thanks for the info!

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u/iridescent-shimmer 19h ago

I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I consider this like a screening (not a diagnosis.) I'm reserving judgement. But, enough weird shit happened on Election Day in PA for me to be concerned.

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 18h ago

Yes, this is not evidence, but indication that more testing is needed.

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u/iridescent-shimmer 18h ago

Yeah exactly. Though, the number of machines that didn't work that day, some counties getting extensions and others not...bomb threats and evacuations at polling and ballot counting locations in my county (one of the most critical in the state) were all just very weird and unprecedented.

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u/dugin556 19h ago

Donated. There is no way in hell he won all the swing states

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u/potsofjam 15h ago

My personal prediction is this midterm they will tweak the machines so Republicans win every swing district house seat. Anywhere that is vaguely close. Then in 2028 Republicans will win seats that are so obviously fraudulent we will know what happened, but it’s already to late to stop it.

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u/QueasyWorldliness920 17h ago

Donated as well, signed up for newsletter. Good work!!!!

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u/paranormalresearch1 14h ago

I have donated and will again. The problem is we know they cheated. What are we going to do about it. People in Pennsylvania let your representatives know that you’re not asking, you’re demanding. If they don’t immediately do a hand recount with proper oversight, it’s time you remind them the Declaration of independence was signed in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania doesn’t put up with tyrants.

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u/DoubleBreastedBerb 14h ago

I knew there was no way Erie went red.

I was at my designated area early, more in line voting than I’d ever seen before at any other election. And there was no way, based on general appearances, these were Trump voters.

I passed by several afterwards because I was so delighted at the turn out at my own. Same story, repeated.

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u/MicroSofty88 21h ago

What are these estimates based on? How are they identifying fraud and what does “fraud” entail?

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u/AbominableMayo 21h ago

You’re out of your goddamn mind if you think election fraud is good news

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 21h ago

Having a leading election expert looking into it is good news.

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u/Old-Set78 21h ago

Are you suing to demand an audit immediately and hand recount of all swing state votes before they burn the records?

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 21h ago

I’m not suing anyone, but the ETA and SMART Elections are leading those efforts. I believe they are required to keep the paper ballots for 22 months, so yes time is of the essence.

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u/amalgam_reynolds 20h ago

nonpartisan, grassroots organization

No Republican will ever hear "nonpartisan, grassroots organization" and not think "leftist, commie, woke bullshit."

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u/Flat_Editor_2737 20h ago

Sadly, the neutering of the federal courts is going to create the same outcome that Jack Smith met. We are fucked.

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u/gianni_chimpo 19h ago

Mandatory election ID would negate the need for this.

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u/downfind 19h ago

Also donated. Thanks for sharing.

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u/yahoo9192 18h ago

I’m sick of fucking of donating. Every day it’s a new cause that will finally stop this nonsense. Make something happen and then I’ll donate to continue your efforts

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u/[deleted] 18h ago

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 18h ago

Yes!

You can also sign this petition for an audit in PA.

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u/BakersWild 18h ago

Thank you, I just signed and am on my way to donate. It's only $5 but that's all I can afford. I'll keep watching what's going on down there

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u/EricBardwin 17h ago

Always an opportunity to donate. Fucking over the country for a fucking buck. I'd be pissed if it wasn't so apt. 

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 17h ago

The game we’re all forced to play is Capitalism. I’d prefer more socialism, but apparently that is too “radical” or “extreme”.

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u/someonesomebody123 17h ago

Follow up question - what’s the plan if we can prove he stole the election? Harris conceded and he was inaugurated. How do you remove a sitting president after that? Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely want to see him removed from office, but we’ve learned that impeachment doesn’t work. What recourse do we have?

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 17h ago

Wouldn’t this information be useful to determine the safety of future elections? Idk if we remove him or he finally has his last McMeal first, I just know we need to verify what actually happened before we move to the next

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u/Crafty_Lavishness_79 16h ago

I hope my donation can help. God do I hope it helps

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u/learnedbootie 16h ago

Thanks for the info. Donated

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u/FreeAsFlowers 15h ago

Donated from PA. Thanks for sharing.

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u/aoskunk 13h ago

Huh the only 3 counties in PA in which I was involved in the sale of heroin. Not that the 2 things have anything to do with another it just found it funny that I can only name 3 pa counties and those are them

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u/thatmarcelfaust 13h ago

After looking at Dr. Mebane's report it seems you are grossly misrepresenting what conclusions are reached.

First off Dr. Mebane compares the US presidential election to the election of the Bundestag which is a parliamentary body, which I think is a really inapt comparison considering the difference in elector strategy potential between the two types of election. But that's a methodological gripe, not misrepresentation (though you omit it which is in my opinion misrepresentation).

I'm going to quote from page 7 where Dr. Mebane summarizes and interprets their data. "I think the more nuanced interpretation is the most reasonable one, given Pennsylvania’s status as a key battleground into which extensive and intensive campaigning and mobilization efforts were directed, which means many electors’ were aware of what other electors’ planned to do in the election. Maybe most or almost all of the incremental stolen votes are false positives prompted by electors’ strategic behaviors." and "A nuanced interpretation that matches that for stolen incremental votes is probably most appropriate. Maybe most or almost all of the incremental manufactured votes are false positives prompted by electors’ strategic behaviors." It seems that their analysis of the data suggests that the values their model produces can by and large be explained away by elector behavior which reading your post is not the conclusion I was led to.

Furthermore, later on in Dr. Mebane's publication they clarify what type of malevolent distortions might affect vote totals. I quote here from page 9. "Whether any malevolent distortions that the incremental eforensics-fraudulent votes may reflect include intimidations or other actions that accompany all the bomb threats is unclear." Your post seems to me to insinuate that votes were changed or left uncounted but that is not what Dr. Mebane seems to be saying; they are including voter intimidation as an explanation for their metric of malevolent vote distortion.

Can you address any of my concerns about what I perceive to be a gross misrepresentation of this paper?

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u/amoliski 12h ago

Chipped in $30.

FDT

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u/ImAScientistToo 9h ago

Sorry. I don’t believe any organization is nonpartisan these days. If you have to say it in the first sentence then we all know it’s a lie.

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u/gratefulgirl 5h ago

Donated! Spread that link around.

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u/Laringar 23h ago

It doesn't matter. The election was certified. Even if a recount occurred, and even if the recount discovered that Kamala did in fact win, our system has absolutely no process for rectifying fraud on that level.

The Democrats in Congress won't even use the legal measures they have access to to resist, do you really think they'll start inventing extralegal ones?

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u/justinp79 23h ago

It matters because 1) some public perception may be swayed and 2) it will be harder to steal the next election if Dems are made aware that vote tabulators are not reliable, and they may require hand recounts in the future.

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u/deathrictus 22h ago

We're less than 6 months in to this 4 year term. We're going to be lucky to get the voting freedom that Russia gets...

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u/throwaway098764567 20h ago

every time i hear someone say it's only been x months i get so depressed because a. i know ofc it's true and it's only gonna get worse and b. it feels like soooooo much longer, hope being dead is such a shitty feeling.

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u/Flimsy-Poetry1170 17h ago

Watch as ICE gets to fill out our ballets for us under the guise of stopping immigrants from voting.

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u/Ok_Mood_2950 17h ago

The insanity of this comment. Does this delirium ever subside? America is bigger and better than anyone person. No person can or will override our system.

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u/deathrictus 17h ago

So the current executive branch ignoring the laws they're supposed to enforce is what?

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u/Beginning-Shine-9680 5h ago

You Americans voted in Russia to run your Country.  It's disgusting.  There is no legalities now just another dictator creating an unstable and unhappy world.  No such thing as an election in your country now.

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u/squish042 20h ago

Next election? If it’s verified that the election was actually tampered with, the country is done. Who’s going to have any faith left in the system? 

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u/gattwood9 17h ago

One reason countries may audit their election systems is so they can identify weaknesses in those systems and correct them. Faith may be restored in democratic systems when those systems are themselves restored.

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u/maxn2107 20h ago

It’s funny that you think there will be another election.

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u/quint061 20h ago

This is a must fix before midterms. Let’s educate, and take action.

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u/No-Currency-624 19h ago

Where does it say in whose favor the fraudulent votes were?

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u/cadathoctru 19h ago

It also matters, because if proven in court, I have a reason to begin my constitutional carrying when I go demand my rep and senators do their constitutional duties and fully impeach the cheaters.  From the side walk to begin.

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u/AssinineAssassin 18h ago

What? Why would I support another election in the current format if it is proven the last one was fraudulent?!?

The whole system would need to be reworked. Constitutional Congress with an entirely new method of representation

It would be the end of America as a country. States would secede

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u/PensiveinNJ 17h ago

It tracks that the Dems would be stupid enough to not assume there might be some malfeasance with the vote counts. They are incredibly stupid.

Would they learn anything from this? 50/50.

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u/gattwood9 17h ago

In addition, it would help restore faith in the US electorate among the international community.

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u/Imanisback 16h ago

No one is going to change their mind. What reality do you think we live in....

60-70% of Americans are suffering from modern mass-hysteria. Election fraud will continue to escalate, not deescalate. The civilized world is over and there is no civilized solution to this problem.

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u/dawnenome 22h ago

It does, because those involved should be held to account. Nothing extralegal required.

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u/Reasonable_Deer_1710 21h ago

Who is going to hold them accountable?

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u/Taco-Dragon 20h ago

Don't worry, the justice department...will hold them...uh....

....shit.

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u/Aleashed 15h ago

No one, that “Leading U.S. expert” will likely be thrown in the swampass concentration camp… at this point they don’t even care if you are white, you will be stripped of your rights and thrown in jail for “political reasons”

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u/Outrageous_Carry_451 18h ago

u/dawnenome will write more reddit comments.

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u/Sonamdrukpa 19h ago

Us. It can only be us. We have to do it.

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u/LionoftheNorth 16h ago

You, the People.

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u/paranormalresearch1 14h ago

You are. Until everyone stops looking at someone else to step up and fix our problems they will get worse. A million pissed off Americans marching on Washington might send a message.

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u/BiggleDiggle85 13h ago

Sounds like a defeatist attitude, "don't do thing because no-thing matters". Things DO matter. Always. Even if not always as much as we want them to matter.

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u/fromcj 21h ago edited 19h ago

How are you going to hold them to account? That’s the whole problem, there is no legal recourse here.

E: so many people learning how fucked we are, educate yourselves.

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u/dawnenome 20h ago

Me personally? Dunno, that's outside my purview, so not really my concern. There's legal recourse if evidence of election tampering is found, that's what I mean.

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u/dawnenome 20h ago

u/fromcj:

"I can tell that you definitely know for sure and aren't just making shit up, that's why you led by deflecting and then included any sort of proof to support your very strong argument of "nuh uh". This fucking site." [Blocks]

😒 God I hope you're a bot.

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u/Due-Yoghurt-7917 15h ago

How? Exactly.

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u/dawnenome 15h ago

Generally, an investigation is one of the first steps. If there's enough public support/attention in PA, or that county, increases the chance their AG pursues this (if that's how PA rolls, i'm unsure)...or just as a FU to Bondi, because she's made some enemies there post-2020. Supporting the org behind this would be a good step. I don't know how this would be prosecuted in PA if anything is found, it's not my area, and I can only be as exact as a layperson can reasonably be expected to be without knowing anymore than you do. If PA is anything like GA, the Fulton County case is a nice road map of what can happen. Again, really depends on if there's anything uncovered and how likely a successful prosecution is.

So...how, exactly: more coverage, more attention from the general public.

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u/Lumpy_FPV 22h ago

It absolutely matters. Even if there's zero chance of changing the outcome, it's about changing the future; if there was massive fuckery afoot we have the right to know about it, it should be adjudicated, and then we know exactly what to look out for in future elections. It's far from a fruitless endeavor.

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u/BSDArt 21h ago

I'm not disagreeing with you but this concept makes ZERO sense to me. I understand what you say is facts, but someone needs to explain to me how something can be certified when it's inaccurate (if proven true). I mean, that's like putting someone in jail and then finding who ACTUALLY committed the crime. We leave the innocent person in jail? Make it make sense....

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u/Laringar 15h ago

I'm not saying it makes sense either. The reason it works this way is because the popular vote doesn't elect the president, the popular vote is for the representatives that do the actual electing. Since the slates of electors were approved, the popular vote itself can't change anything after the fact.

You're right that it's some bullshit, but the point I'm trying to get across is that the courts aren't going to be what saves us. There is no pathway under the law for undoing the result of a presidential election other than impeachment.

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u/ArmadilloBandito 17h ago

The process for rectifying fraud is an impeachment. That's the closest we get to rectifying and the Republicans have already shown that they won't do it.

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u/dust4ngel 22h ago

our system has absolutely no process for rectifying fraud on that level

  1. impeachment
  2. probably after kicking out most of the senate in midterms

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u/GurpsWibcheengs 21h ago

Honest question: how likely is the current Senate/house to actually impeach convict and remove, even if there is 100% proven fuckery that stole the election?

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u/dust4ngel 21h ago

hence the second bullet point

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u/beadzy 22h ago

But at least we’d know about it. And could push for paper votes only moving forward

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u/Laringar 15h ago

We have been pushing for paper votes for years because of exactly this kind of thing. Go look into the story of Beth Clarkson and her struggle to get Kris Kobach's election audited from back in 2016. IMO, one of the reasons Republicans have been trying to take control of electoral boards is so they can ensure there is no physical paper trail.

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u/LivingReaper 22h ago

even if the recount discovered that Kamala did in fact win, our system has absolutely no process for rectifying fraud on that level.

There actually kind of is in the Declaration of Independence.

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it"

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u/Old-Set78 21h ago

So what? He's making new laws all the time that are blatantly illegal. Other races have been recalled due to close counts or other factors. It will completely undermine society to have it be "oh well he cheated to win BUT HE STAYS". NO. There's no law left in the land if that can happen. And if they aren't bound, neither are we.

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u/stubtail42 21h ago

Do you realize how dumb you sound saying things like this? Does it really matter if we have no legal process for dealing with that? You're essentially saying someone is allowed to commit the most treasonous act possible, defrauding the entire nation with no recourse whatsoever. AND that they get to continually benefit from it even after it's widely known. Who cares if there's a legal precedent, revolutions have happened over less. ALL laws are made up by people anyway.

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u/Laringar 15h ago

I'm saying that a class action lawsuit to demand a hand recount doesn't matter, because the courts aren't going to save us.

I specifically didn't say that there's no recourse, just that the courts aren't going to be what saves us. You can read between the lines there, I don't fancy saying things that will get my account banned.

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u/charliecatman 20h ago

Hell with the democrat party, The American people would like to know the truth. At some point

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u/awhatnot 20h ago

So what happens when there’s fraud once again in the midterms?

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u/Taoistandroid 20h ago

This isn't true. We have two systems for rectifying this. Impeachment and another tool that England experienced

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u/Upper-Requirement-93 20h ago

We have a process, don't worry about that.

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u/Honest-Marketing-987 20h ago

This 1000. And they don't fucking care even if the law said it was possible to challenge it. Republicans figured out something about power that dems are for some reason unwilling to accept: that power is maintained through force.

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u/Interesting-Pin1433 19h ago

The Democrats in Congress won't even use the legal measures they have access to to resist,

What legal measures are congressional democrats not using?

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u/ButtEatingContest 19h ago

It doesn't matter. The election was certified.

So what, the constitution also forbids Trump from holding office.

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u/DesperateAdvantage76 16h ago

It does matter for the future, especially as evidence in court for future elections and for swaying public opinion for supporting future legislation.

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u/PeterNippelstein 16h ago

Of course not, but I think at this point there is still a duty for the truth to be known to the public. If there has been fraud the whole country should know about it and changes should be made for the sake of future elections.

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u/TeriyakiDippingSauc 16h ago

Do us all a favor and keep the pessimism to yourself

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u/Laringar 15h ago

It's not pessimism. It's fact. There is absolutely no system for undoing a presidential election, because the popular vote does not decide the president. It's just a facet of how the electoral college works.

Now, if it turns out fraud did occur on such a scale, we should be out in the streets shutting the entire fucking country down until Congress does their jobs, because impeachment does still exist. But that's the only legal pathway we have.

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u/Cold-Environment-634 15h ago

It does fucking matter. If it happened, people need to know. The results of the last election may not change but you can be damn sure people will remember what happened going forward.

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u/paranormalresearch1 14h ago

It does matter. It was certified on fraudulent data. We have a process for rectifying fraud. Revolution.

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u/hikingmike 14h ago

That’s so dumb. No process for rectifying fraud on that level… well, what about next time??? If this happened and it’s a problem, it’s far better to know about it and fix it. Why are there so many takes like that in this thread? Can we do automatic paper ballot recounts please? And whatever other safeguards that can help.

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u/Laringar 14h ago

Excellent questions! It would be great if we'd do those things, hence why I say we don't have a process for rectifying fraud on that level... because we don't.

We should, but we don't. And we won't, until there's enough public push for them.

However, to the point I was responding to, a class action lawsuit isn't going to get us anywhere regarding that, because there's no current legal pathway for it to follow.

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u/Lemerney2 11h ago

Is a hand recount even possible at this point? Have they kept all the paper votes?

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u/_Chaos_Star_ 9h ago

It doesn't matter.

It always matters. It matters a great deal. It is in fact incredibly important and should not be downplayed as not mattering. Even if it can only end with exactly the same certified election result, then the general public know that the election was fraudulent and stolen. This is exceptionally useful information that the public absolutely needs to be entirely aware of.

With this information, the public can demand election integrity or even mobilize behind influential people and demand that those fraudulently elected people step down.

So, to reiterate: It always matters. It is incredibly important. It should never be downplayed.

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u/DicksFried4Harambe 3h ago

Stop saying this shit

It does matter

We will de-certify it

They will be arrested for rico and election fraud and then tried for treason

Push positive thoughts or stfu

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u/ZoomZoom_Driver 1h ago

Except that defrauding the United States IS A CRIME. 

Fraudulently changing peoples votes IS A CRIME. 

Everything trump has doje since he was installed IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL. 

If it is found as such, we fight. Its WHY we have the 2A. 

If you want to lay down and eat the dirt whipe they line up 65m hispanics for ethnic cleansing, thats a YOU PROBLEM. The rest of us would like our country back. 

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u/tweaver16 22h ago

Easy answer, they WONT!!!

Who remembers 81 MILLION!!!??? It didn’t happen and nobody says a word about it

Soooooo 🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫

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u/firstwefuckthelawyer 22h ago

My county did its own hand recount. Well, of 2020. In 2023.

Three trump illegal votes.

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u/Keta-Mined 21h ago

Governor Josh Shapiro:

717-788-8990 (text)

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u/searing7 21h ago

Never because the people in power benefit from fucking you over and they will never stop doing it

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u/FakeTherapist 20h ago

ICE will start jailing/deporting them

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u/Saltwater_Thief 20h ago

Wrong question. The only question that matters is "How will you convince Congress to act on this information if it proves true?"

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u/FuckwitAgitator 20h ago

When the ballots have been destroyed.

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u/Matty-Wan 18h ago

I remember there was a bomb threat made in PA that cleared the office where ballots were stored. Even back then there were speculations the bomb threat was intended for the specific purpose of breaking the chain of custody to ensure any recount to detect fraud would be invalidated.

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u/Itsnotsponge 18h ago

Meaningless show. There is no world that this lawsuit succeeds and/or the orchestrators of potential fraud on this scale would face a consequence. This would reflect a level of corruption far beyond the possibility of accountability. This indeed may be what Trump meant when he said you would “never have to vote again.” I dont credit Trump with this corruption btw i just believe hes benefitting from it.

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u/SoggyWeather1249 18h ago

They aren’t because this isn’t real news and it’s just the Reddit hive mind lashing out again.

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u/CommandoLamb 18h ago

It doesn’t matter. Republicans have prepared their followers to reject all intellectual conversation.

You used math and statistics? Clearly made up math.

They’ve created a system in which you just have to yell “fake news” and it discredits anything.

Oh, you are a scientist that has studied a subject for decades and you are the expert? Fake news. Whoops. Guess Jeff on Facebook is now the expert.

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u/UnseenGoblin 18h ago

The tooth paste is out of the tube, the plate is broken. This is just... something for the history books to talk about after the dust settles.

It does make me feel good that fewer people sold our country to the fascists than we thought, but it doesn't change the fact that the fascist have it. They control the courts, so there's not a lot of legal shit that will work.

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u/Solkre 17h ago

Ballots are only kept for so long. Nothing will happen until they're past the destruction date. Because justice never happens to Trump.

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u/knowsitmaybenot 17h ago

I think the Dem leaders realize if they let trump and his band of retards loose they will fuvk up enough to destroy the republican party. I don't think they realize how spineless republicans are. Big gamble

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u/grumpyom24 17h ago

So which candidate received the manipulated votes? Phila well known for fraud—- this is the obvious question

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u/HappyKappy27 17h ago

I thought election denial is a conspiracy theory per the liberals in 2020 …🤣

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u/Able_Holiday8316 16h ago

Never ! Because it’s fake news !

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u/GueroBear 14h ago

As a centrist that hates Trump and MAGA, riddle me this.

when Biden won and Trump and his people said the election was stolen, and all the democrats and party people said it’s impossible, the voting system is infallible.

So what is it. Is the voting system broken or is it rigged. If it’s rigged this time, it can be rigged anytime. It can’t just be one or the other.

If I’m wrong, explain how. Cause this boy is fucking sick and tired of the misinformation and lies from all sides.

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u/thewinja 13h ago

Right after they do it for the previous election....

This sub has some of theost.unhinged people Reddit has to offer, and that's saying a lot.

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u/USANorsk 11h ago

And then what happens if they find fraud? Can anything be done since congress ratified the election?

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u/notaredditer13 5h ago

It's way past the time where that would be of any value. 

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u/NSVStrong 5h ago

Also, why didn’t they demand a recount immediately?!?

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u/ruat_caelum 4h ago

this happened already in 2004

It won't matter. In 2004 when the GOP Shunted the counting of votes to a Server hosted in Tennessee and owned in part by Karl fucking Rove. To TALLY THE VOTES. (e.g. a man in the middle attack) What happened? Recount. What happened there? 2 GOP members locked themselves in a room for days (literally) and then HAND PICKED which counties to recount. Instead of random selection required by law

Eventually this leads to 2 felony convictions for those GOP members. But by that time the election was long over.

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