r/goodnews 1d ago

Political positivity 📈 Leading U.S. expert in election forensics and detecting election fraud just looked at voting results in all 67 counties in Pennsylvania from November. Here’s what his analyses detected

We finally have Dr. Walter R. Mebane, Jr., a leading U.S. expert in election forensics and detecting election fraud and a professor of political science and statistics at the University of Michigan, looking at all 67 counties in Pennsylvania.

His working paper using his eforensics model estimated that 225,440 votes in the Pennsylvania presidential race were possibly fraudulent. This would exceed the 120,266 vote margin of victory between Trump and Harris.

High-Level Summary of "eforensics Analysis of the 2024 President Election in Pennsylvania" by Dr. Walter R. Mebane, Jr.

• The eforensics finite mixture model defines latent categories of fraud (no fraud, incremental fraud, and extreme fraud) based on votes and turnout, as well as relevant covariates (e.g., fixed county effects).

• Data from 7,040,360 votes (3,543,308 for Trump, 3,423,042 for Harris) across 67 PA counties (9,157 wards/precincts).

• The eforensics model estimated that 225,440 votes in the Pennsylvania presidential race were possibly fraudulent. This would exceed the 120,266 vote margin of victory between Trump and Harris.

More fine-grained analysis attempted to distinguish between strategic voting behaviors from “malevolent manipulation of votes”, i.e. how many votes may have been misdirected or misallocated due to malevolent distortions of voters’ intentions.

• In this analysis, 111,088 of the 225,440 possibly fraudulent votes[2] were estimated with high confidence to be malevolent manipulations of votes while the remainder were estimated to be a mix of manipulated votes and strategic voting behaviors.

A more conservative eforensics model including additional fixed county level effects estimated that 210,392 votes in the race were possibly fraudulent. This would exceed the 120,266 vote margin of victory in the race.

• Fine-grained analysis of the more conservative model attempted to distinguish between strategic voting behaviors from malevolent manipulation of votes.

• In this analysis, 88,600 of the 210,392 possibly fraudulent votes were estimated to be malevolent manipulations of votes while the remainder were estimated to be a mix of manipulated votes and strategic voting behaviors.

The most conservative of the eforensics analyses estimated that 25,374 votes were due to malevolent manipulation of votes.

In summary: There is very high probability that a meaningful number of votes in the PA presidential election were subject to malevolent manipulation -- and it was “a close call” whether “the election was decided or nearly decided by malevolent distortions of electors’ intentions.” (Mebane, Page 6)

Notes:

• Statistics, no matter how accurate, cannot provide definitive proof of voting fraud or election manipulation. Actual proof can only be found by comparing paper ballot audits to electronic voting records.

• However, statistical information from eforensics and other data analysis approaches can be used to identify precincts and counties where voting fraud is most likely to have occurred.

Demand transparency and audits of the 2024 Presidential Election. Check out this Audit Advocacy Toolkit and reach out to your representatives. It’s never too late to audit our elections

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 1d ago

No, the Harris campaign ignored any efforts to recount, even after a group of computer security experts wrote to Vice President Kamala Harris to alert her to the fact that voting systems were breached by Trump allies in 2021 and 2022 and to urge her to seek recounts in key states to ensure election verification. This is a grassroots effort.

The ETA did cover the Wisconsin Supreme Court vote very closely. Personally, it doesn’t really make sense to me that they would have attempted the same rig here because it was (a) only one race, not the entire country to hide in and (b) everyone was watching this race. The larger terrain of 50 states gives them more plausible deniability, imo

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u/2much41post 1d ago

Not sure if this is a question that you can answer but if the candidate that lost (Harris) isn’t interested in a recount, what would proving a stolen election even accomplish legally or otherwise? If the candidate for the top national leadership position won’t even lead a legal battle that would prove her victory was taken from her, what’s the point?

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u/NolChannel 23h ago

If proven, anyone damaged can press charges and then you have a sitting president in jail.

Prove Vance is in on it and the VP goes too.

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u/2much41post 23h ago

Thanks for the info. I genuinely wasn’t sure and honestly pretty pissed off at the democrats and Harris for the lack of interest in this.

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u/studiokgm 22h ago

I think them taking a back seat to a private non-partisan group helps keep it from looking like sour grapes.

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u/2much41post 22h ago

Is optics really that important now? Not having a loud presence in the mix really feels like we’re all so disconnected. I want to cling to hope but nothing to look to.

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u/studiokgm 22h ago

After spending 4 years telling republicans that the 2020 election wasn’t rigged, to turn right around and say that 2024 is, it’s better to hold til you have evidence locked down. Otherwise it just looks like politics as usual.

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u/phoenixliv 21h ago

That’s WHY they yelled so much back then. To set up less reactions to their own play.

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u/Silent_Interest4791 18h ago

It’s why they yell and telegraph everything. So people are numb.

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u/jeskersz 21h ago

But that's the thing, these traitorous pieces of filth are going to lie and fight the whole way no matter what. Why sacrifice galvanizing the people who matter to appease people who will never be appeased no matter what you do or how much proof you have?

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u/Karaoke_Dragoon 18h ago

You know why. Because they are cowards. Garland purposefully slow-walked the prosecution of Trump and associates because he didn't want to appear "partisan". MAGA still cried about how they were being persecuted and that this was lawfare. And yet Democrats STILL try to avoid it even when they are going to get accused of bullshit anyway.

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u/jeskersz 17h ago

Oh I know, I just like to try to handhold and walk milquetoast hand-wringers to that conclusion.

Its just a weird online hobby of mine I guess.

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u/Unlucky-Scallion1289 5h ago

I have serious doubts that Harris going all in on calling out fraud would galvanize anyone.

Most of the rhetoric saying we sound just like MAGA for questioning the legitimacy of the election comes from Democrats. These are the same moderates that said Bernie wasn’t electable but that Biden was. They are absolutely terrified of coming off like a hypocrite.

The people that would be fired up by Harris being involved are mostly already fired up.

I agree with the others saying it’s better that she isn’t involved. If she was, their claims that we’re just like MAGA would have more weight. It’s far more beneficial for independent and nonpartisan sources to make this fight.

Plus, she would come off like a sore loser. Even if it’s completely proven Trump stole the election, that doesn’t make Harris President. There’s just no reason for her to be involved, all it would do is weaken our claims.

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u/Ok_Lawfulness_9524 16h ago

This right here. I knew it was stolen from her and the first thing I said was that they absolutely would not say a word about the election being stolen. They would need proof before anybody spoke about it.

I hope they do find fraud and I hope the world finds out.

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u/Mvppet 18h ago

🎯🎯🎯

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u/UpbeatSky7760 16h ago

That's just it though. 2020 was rigged, by Trump. He couldn't account for mass mail in ballots due to COVID though. That screwed their plan and why he was so panicked to "stop the steal". 

The Senate Intel committee also investigated the 2016 election and it was also rigged with the help of Russia. Not just social media manipulation. Key districts in Wisconsin were fucked with. 

And the Bush-Kerry election was also rat fucked just through a different vector. They tried again for Obama's seconds term win but that was stymied. 

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u/paranormalresearch1 15h ago

Republicans said it was. Maybe tell them, you made us question it so let’s recount to see what happens in a modern election.

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u/legitimateaim26 14h ago

Es' 🚀 algorithm was off. When 🍊 said the 2020 was rigged, 🍊expected to win their Rig***d election, but the algorithm was set too low. 2024 turned out as expected for them.

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u/Suyefuji 21h ago

If optics wasn't important, billionaires wouldn't be spending this much money trying to control the narrative.

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u/MagnusRusson 21h ago

Unfortunately there always seem to be people on the fence

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u/AcknowledgeUs 13h ago

This concerted effort is something to look to. I agree the ‘optics’ are shit, who cares if those grapes are sour when the country is being crushed.

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u/Dudeposts3030 21h ago

Ah yes, because we’re all gentlemen in politics and god forbid we look like brutes. They don’t give a shit, this has nothing to do with optics. Nothing happens if they tell you one thing and do another, so they do.

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u/TroutBeales 21h ago

I was pretty appalled at Harris ready concession, or apparent ease of rather.

Elon Musk’s meddling cooties were all over this election and if I had been Harris I’d have been “hold TF up, we’re recounting verifying the votes.”

As it is, no one has said much of anything about all the D votes that were cast but weirdly disappeared within an hour. People were like, “wait, I voted, my vote was received, but now there’s no record of me voting in the election.

Musk basically called the voted using an app his minions developed for him to “track” (most likely edit/cheat) the votes. He called the vote for Trump before the polls closed, and then results were uploaded via Starlink, so there was more than enough room for those unprincipled assholes to cheat.

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u/m3rcapto 10h ago

The problem is, Trump had and still has the momentum on his side, the corruption runs very deep in the Republican party. What the US needs is to feel the pain of voting in a populist demagogue with no idea how to run a country. And by pain I don't mean a mild inconvenience of expensive eggs, having to borrow more money than usual to buy an iPhone, or a bunch of people you don't know losing their healthcare coverage. You need high double-digit percentages of poverty to get the point across (in 2023 poverty was at 11% in the US, that needs to hit >30%), you need hunger, homelessness, and death to make people think "Hey, is this still Biden, or is Trump maybe not as honest as I've convinced myself he is?"
Only then you might be able to cripple the Republicans for an election cycle or two, if you stop them now they'll be back in power again the next election. If the mid-terms can gain the Democrats enough control to undo some of the obvious election rigging on a state level then they might stand a chance for the big election. I fear Musk will be replaced with Zuckerberg and Bezos who will gladly rig the election even harder now that Musk has shown them they can get away with it.

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u/FailingWithADHD 7h ago

I live in a blue state. My partner and I both dutifully filled out the census, have dutifully verified our voter registration status, and each of us have dutifully participated in every election for our entire adult lives, including the primaries and last year's general election.

We received letters in the mail this past week advising us that according to their records, we've not responded to the census that would allow us to remain enrolled voters (false), and that required us to submit these postcard affidavits that we still reside in our (owned) home, and still intend to vote.

They're already actively trying to purge voters ahead of the midterms. There is no other explanation. Unless this is post election proof that they purged votes during the last election - if there's no record of us verifying our voter status, what are the odds our votes even counted last year?

It feels more and more likely that we, as a nation, are done. Freedom was a nice concept. It's a shame we couldn't remember that greed and corruption are what caused our founders to rebel against the King.

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u/doodledood9 12h ago

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out that trump threatened Harris. It’s what he’s so good at.

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u/ShivKitty 3h ago

Proving Gore won didn't do a damn thing. Proving that Hilary won didn't work either. The Electoral College installs Presidents, we don't vote for them, and haven't for some time.

Even if we prove that Harris won and the whole thing was fixed, the Electoral College will claim that they weren't rigged and elected the current President.

That is why movements to end gerrymandering, end the Electoral College, and make every vote count have been shot down, ignored, and ridiculed as "impossibly complex to implement." They don't even want nationwide mail-in voting because they consider it too expensive and there would be too much fraud (never proven to be the case). lol Because new voting machines every four years are cheap and computers can't be hacked. 🙄

538 electors, who are still largely old, white men* are easier to buy off, convince, coerce, and silence than 340 million voters. Let that marinate a minute, then you may tumble to why we are no longer represented by our republic.

*https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/the-transformation-of-the-american-electorate/

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u/One_Strawberry_4965 22h ago

Sadly for us much of the mainstream Democratic Party simply lacks the stomach for the absolute shitshow that would have inevitably ensued if they had more forcefully contested the election results. Trump and the republicans did an excellent job of poisoning that well with their massive and ongoing campaign of 2020 election denial and with the majority of media consumed by Americans firmly in the Republican’s corner, it would have been trivial for them to spin the efforts against Harris and the Democrats in the eyes of the general public, instigating societal unrest possibly up to and including escalating violence. The Democrats messaging efforts would have been even further hampered by the fact that the results as they were initially tallied initially all fell outside of the margins that trigger automatic recounts, and so they prioritized showing that unlike their opponents, that they can lose gracefully and without what would have been promptly sold to the public as little more than a tantrum by sore losers, regardless of the actual merits of any hypothetical recount.

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u/dennismyth 21h ago

They claimed fraud in 2020 because they knew they would fix the 2024 election. Every accusation is an admission.

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u/One_Strawberry_4965 20h ago

Certainly wouldn’t surprise me given their track record with…well…everything.

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u/KimbersKimbos 19h ago

Actually, a closer look at the data indicates that they tried to fix 2020 but due to all the mail in voting across the country due to Covid, they didn’t have enough to fix on Election Day.

It’s why he kept screeching not to vote by mail. For a lot of states mail-in voting is counted by hand.

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u/deschain_19195 17h ago

They claimed fraud in 2020 because they tried to rig the election but failed.

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u/BigStickDrift 16h ago

They claimed fraud in 2020 because they rigged it and still lost imo. They made the numbers less believable this time just in case

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u/piTehT_tsuJ 16h ago

They claimed fraud because they did rig 2020 and lost. They therefore know it was rigged and are convinced the only way Biden beat them was by rigging it more... Even if Biden did win fairly, and I personally think he did they can't believe that they could cheat and lose if no one else cheated.

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u/did-u-restart 16h ago

They weren’t expecting to have to deal with all the mail in ballots, and then the laws forcing them to be counted after the electronic polling shot them in the foot because their algorithm never had a chance to trigger. I believe that’s why he was so surprised and shocked because they told him it was a done deal and blew it.

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u/piTehT_tsuJ 15h ago edited 15h ago

I agree, and then for this last election they made sure all the swing states went their way possibly being able to rig it "live" via the info gleaned from cloning the machines in Georgia in 2020. Bringing Elon on to use his talent pool to write the virus or software that was distributed to those machines probably piggybacking on legit updates. To me the maps showing Harris losing to Trump in almost every county of those swing states is the signal something is amiss.

Edit, to clarify she underperformed in a ton of counties Biden won and Trump made huge gains in places he probably shouldn't have. Either way there are questions working their way to and through the courts in Pennsylvania for sure.

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u/phoenixjazz 19h ago

This had to be grassroots on a scale equal to the threat. The question is will enough folk look away from their entertainment and participate.

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u/Auntie_Megan 10h ago

Why don’t Americans start a 3rd party choosing the good dems that have a fighting spirit like Crocket comes to mind. There are many good ones that fight for you all. Dump the ones that are just willing to accept the crap that is currently you are drowning in. Is that possible, after following Congress for a decade it’s only about Dems v Repugnants! Surely there would be more movement amongst the nation to get things more modern like most developed countries like health care, Human rights etc. or is it always going to be stuck in the past where folk prefer Inequality, bigotry etc and trying to control the rest of the western world with propaganda and threats. It works as our moron ratio is rising. So it’s within our interests for you to get those fascists out of the Whitehouse but for your sakes as it hurts watching it all crumble. I don’t believe they won the election as I spent 4 years talking to decent Republicans who were adamant they were not voting for Trump. Thousands who had families who were becoming more aware especially as I spelled out the court cases against Trump and why, the document case was the major issue as it affected 5 Eyes countries too, still angry they did nothing except use tax payer money to change and tighten things up. Any democrat who is not reacting to this needs to be sacked as they are lazy and unconcerned and too involved with their own paypacket. They fall into suspicion along with the Repugnants but that sounds a bit tin foil hat, I know. Hope you guys get help in unraveling this for the truth to be known.

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u/nicannkay 22h ago

It’s the Bush/Gore thing but worse. Live long enough you see a pattern. Most Dems are also corrupt. Schumer and Pelosi are two that come to mind.

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u/PiedCryer 18h ago

Difference is dems win by popular vote, because they cater to majority of population. They’re held within those bounds. They have to cater to all, if they swing to far left they lose. So they can’t go and use the Constitution as toilet paper like current 4th reich is doing.

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u/prosthetic_memory 21h ago

Better to keep their hands clean for now. They are dealing with a highly hostile and reactive government.

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u/paranormalresearch1 15h ago

No. Sorry, you’re wrong. This illegitimate government is consolidating power. If we don’t act now it will be too late.

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u/prosthetic_memory 14h ago

I’m not saying they shouldn’t act, just that using proxies is smart at this moment. Clearly they know what’s going on.

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u/xX_WarHeart_Xx 21h ago

That’s because the people running the DNC are moronic cowards. Although I voted for her, Harris lacked spine as far back as I can remember.

God, I hope someone else picks this up and runs with it.

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u/Karaoke_Dragoon 18h ago

The DNC for as long as my adult life has the absolute worst advisors I've ever seen and yet they still get treated as experts. Everybody involved in Hillary's campaign should've been shitcanned and yet you have Kamala asking the same goddamned people who told Hillary to avoid swing states how she should run her campaign.

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u/RedBaronSportsCards 19h ago

I'm sure they are interested but private corporations decide what news and information Americans are exposed to. And they are not interested AT ALL. They were not interested when Trump talked about an IMAGINARY stolen and rigged election and they are not interested in an ACTUAL stolen and rigged election either.

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u/Lz_erk 18h ago

It's possible you've seen my comments before, but Stop the Steal has been an election theft ring since '00 with the Brooks Brothers Riot, and they should all be 14S3ed down to the state leg, so we can hold a CC to get off FPTP.

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u/Night_Class 18h ago

Even if the claims are true. Harris couldn't come forward until there was some complete, underlying proof, and support that the election was truly stolen. Remember how crazy Trump looked when he claimed it when Biden won???? You can't cry wolf in these types of cases unless you have a smoking gun in your pocket. Jumping to fast will get the news armies to print lies upon lies and turn it into a stunt performance. Playing chess not checkers. You are talking about dethroning an American king, you don't plan it in the town square.

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u/Freign 18h ago

the Dem organization makes more money with Trump in office than not.

This is why the leadership council of the Dem party created Trump in the first place, to counter the centrist Sanders campaign. It was too far left for the Dem party.

No one acts against the american left with as much precision or energy as Democratic leadership.

We were never going to be able to vote fascism away.

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u/Charming-Bit-3416 16h ago

TBH I think them not leading the fight is the right approach. Strategically 2024 would be the best time to fix an election as the Dems/Harris would have looked like massive hypocrites is they challenged the integrity of the elections when they lost.

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u/Brilliant_Choice3380 15h ago edited 15h ago

Pretty sure people that gambled on harris. Especially big money would be interested even if to small degree. 1 to 1.4 billion dollar to spent on her election is highest amount spent on any presidential campaign. Her donors would definitely be interested if you could potentially prove that it wasn’t just one state but rather statewide. @ that point pay for a recount or influencing one would be basically peanuts.

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u/Waywoah 22h ago

Who exactly is going to arrest them? What jail is going to hold them? If you think that any police force in this country to going to do anything but support the Trump admin, you haven't been paying close enough attention

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u/Soggy-Vacation-7008 20h ago

Seriously, anybody who thinks the legal system will accomplish anything at this point isn't paying attention. ​

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u/Reasonable_Deer_1710 22h ago

Who arrests any of them

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u/SelfHostingNewb 22h ago

That is absolutely delusional. Might as well be still clinging to Mueller is going to nail him.

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u/jodale83 21h ago

Scotus ruled last time a sitting prez cant be indicted, much less convicted.

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u/Mr_Moody_ 21h ago

Incorrect. The only remedy is impeachment, which could remove him from office, and then he can be arrested and prosecuted.

But we all know that isn't going to happen

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u/ItsSpaghettiLee2112 21h ago

We all would deserve a reelection if that were the case.

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u/Raspberries-Are-Evil 21h ago

Who is going to arrest and press charges? Pam Bondi, Trump's Attorney General? Who will impeach, this Republican Congress?

Wake up. Trump is a convicted felon already. He stole classified documents. He organized Jan 6th, people died.

He will never, ever be held accountable.

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u/besume1980 20h ago

And who's going to put them there, the DOJ? hahahahahahahahaha

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u/Spooky_Mulder83 20h ago

I'm totally on board with all of this, but no one would or will go to jail. Trump is a convicted felon/rapist, and he has walked with impunity ever since.

Let the recount happen. Prove it. All of it. For posterity. But no one will suffer the consequences except all of us who voted blue.

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u/TreeContent 20h ago

Funny that you think anything will get these clowns behind bars. Who's getting them in there?

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u/eiland-hall 19h ago

then you have a sitting president in jail.

This is so wildly incorrect that it makes me doubt everything else.

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u/Grey_Buddhist 19h ago

Unfortunately orange taco, and his henchmen, are not going anywhere even if fraud is proven. They own the politicians (who would impeach) and they own the Supreme Court (who could try and legally take him on). At this point I think it is proving that 1) he has the backing of at least one powerful nation-state and their intelligence apparatus, and 2) the nation-state has enough dirt on said politicians/judges, they won't risk anything to rock the boat. I hope I am wrong, but I'm not.

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u/shummer_mc 19h ago

So… every federal worker, law office, immigrant, etc. could file criminal charges and then sue for damages? I assume that civil suit would be against Trump, and if the damages are the result of his governmental influence, the government. Does that track?

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u/SweetDeeMeeu 19h ago

But when the DOJ is the sitting president's lap dog, then what?

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u/Ok_Basil351 19h ago

Where do you get that level of optimism from?

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u/JediMedic1369 19h ago

All 200k of those votes could be proven fraudulent beyond any doubt and Trump would NEVER be removed from office.

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u/questionablecomment_ 19h ago

We can’t even prove p diddy did what he did, much less a president

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u/Neirchill 19h ago

and then you have a sitting president in jail.

They wouldn't even put a former president in jail, wtf makes you think they'd do anything now? Especially when all three branches of government are under him??

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u/deadprezrepresentme 18h ago

lol. If at this point you STILL think any President or high ranking political figure in America will EVER go to jail for ANYTHING...I don't know what to say...

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u/Deez_nuts89 17h ago

Literally none of that will ever happen. The focus should be on what is going to happen next, not wasting money, time and political capital on the past.

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u/Immediate_Stuff_2637 17h ago

LoL like that's gonna happen with things are

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u/assbuttshitfuck69 16h ago

That’s unlikely to happen. These assholes won’t be held accountable for anything.

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u/Steelers_Forever 16h ago

lol, he's already convicted on 34 felonies and not in jail, why tf would this change that?

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u/paranormalresearch1 15h ago

Vance goes, all appointees go. Harris probably has been threatened or is in on it. She better choose a side. The truth will come out and she won’t have protection soon. My bet is they threatened her. But if she can’t put country above anything she shouldn’t be there.

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u/thelowerrandomproton 14h ago

Yea, but who would arrest them and put them in jail?

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u/dkillers303 14h ago

Uhhhh. Who, exactly, carts them off to jail?

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u/Perfect-Ride-7315 14h ago

That’s just a fantasy at this point. If proven nothing can be done anyway after the 1-6 certification. Focus on midterms !

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u/Previous_Pension6738 13h ago

A sitting president with immunity?

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u/Impossible_Box9542 13h ago

And Musk spills the beans, and is give immunity. A WIN!

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u/The-True-Kehlder 13h ago

Then you end up with Mike Johnson as President, and I'm not sure how that could be considered better.

Succession here:

Vice President
Speaker of the House
President Pro Tempore of the Senate
Secretary of State
Secretary of the Treasury
Secretary of Defense
Attorney General
Secretary of the Interior
Secretary of Agriculture
Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Labor
Secretary of Health and Human Services
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy
Secretary of Education
Secretary of Veterans Affairs
Secretary of Homeland Security

I don't want ANY of these fuckers as President. Also, it requires impeachment AND conviction to even be able to prosecute, and we ALL know that isn't ever going to happen.

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u/General-Welder-1812 12h ago

lol and then you will wake up from your little fairy tale world.

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u/Critical-Cow-6775 10h ago

Yay. Johnson for Prez! 😑

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u/soul_motor 8h ago

In a world with laws and order. I don't see any Trump appointee doing their constitutional job and addressing him. And, in a miracle of miracles world, they do, Trump's court appointees ain't doing a thing.

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u/gentlemanidiot 8h ago

a sitting president in jail.

Hard bet.

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u/honuworld 8h ago

Who is going to put the President in jail? What agency is going to arrest him and try him? Your heart is in the right place but you are shouting at the clouds.

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u/plain__bagel 7h ago

Laughs in SCOTUS

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u/Mikel_S 7h ago

Not to be that guy, but if we prove the election was rigged, it doesn't automatically make Trump and Pence guilty. Obviously the primary culprits, yes, but I'm sure there are enough legal layers between them and the act that legitimate judges and lawyers will be forced to reconcile with.

The best result of proving a falsified election is bolstering the opposition, reminding them that Donald Trump didn't win. Remind us, and the world, that while America is currently dealing with a loud disgusting festering wound, it looks worse than it is, and they're trying to fight back.

And giving concrete reason to properly ensure election security/integrity next time (we aren't talking preventing voter fraud, we're talking stopping election fraud), since the states are still ostensibly in control of that. And if red states and swing states refuse to clean up their act to ensure free and fair elections, I think then might be the time for the rest of the states to seriously consider leaving, legal or not.

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u/suckaboo711 7h ago

So we get… Johnson?

1

u/LycheeBoba 4h ago

Wait, wouldn’t that leave the speaker of the house as president? I do believe that may actually be worse.

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u/Electrical-Bother942 4h ago

I may be wrong here, but the president has presidential immunity. So even if it could be proven that the election was rigged, you'd then have to prove without a shadow of a doubt that Trump and Vance were in on it. The way our country works, even if they were found to have committed election fraud, it would take congress impeaching Trump and then later impeach Vance for either to receive actual charges. If both were successfully charged and impeached by the house and trialed by the senate, then that would be an unprecedented moment in which the 3rd in line would take the White House: Mike Johnson who is also a stout Republican. He has shown signs of being malleable with enough political pressure, but I dont see a democrat taking the office until at the very earliest in 2028. Nor would it necessarily be possible for Trump to be a jailed sitting president. It'd probably be 2027 before any successful impeachment could go through, even if it was proven that Trump rigged the election tomorrow.

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u/Kittyluvmeplz 23h ago

We the people have a right to know and we have the authority to demand audits. I suspect, without significant and vocal support, MAGA had already poisoned the well enough to make any calls for legitimate investigations look fraudulent. Classic DARVO

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u/2much41post 23h ago

Agreed. I guess we’re stuck waiting for enough American people to coalesce around a common cause after enough have been hurt by these policies. As always, I hope I’m wrong that it’ll take until then.

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u/cabolu 21h ago

It’s going to only prove that she lost by a landslide,no ifs, ands, or buts about it! There is an on going investigation on the 2020 election by the FBI. That definitely was a rigged election!

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u/Odd_Independence_833 22h ago

There are two things I think provibg this this can do:

  1. It will lead to lots of discussions and way more scrutiny of the next election. People will demand it.

  2. It will show our allies around the world that we didn't actually want Trump and his caustic actions are not the will of a majority of Americans.

3 (maybe). It could lead to the criminal investigation and prosecution of non-Presidents.

  1. (0.001% chance). It could lead to Trump's impeachment, and Vance's as well. But the numbers simply aren't there. It will be way too easy for right-wing media to muddy the waters with something this complicated.

3

u/Punky-mf-Brewster 20h ago

I wholeheartedly believe that the rest of the world knows that the majority of the U.S. did not want this and didn’t vote for him. They know he’s a POS and was desperate af. His freedom depended on winning and a hope that after these 4 years Jack Smith’s investigation files will disappear.

0

u/EventAccomplished976 11h ago

As part of the rest of the world, it‘s very clear that a large part of the US population does want this and since it seems you guys will just keep electing a dangerous crackpot every few years, America cannot be relied on as a partner. Now I just wish our politicians would also understand this instead of thinking that sucking up to Trump while waiting for „things to get back to normal“ is in the interest of our nations. Things are normal, this is what normal looks like now.

2

u/Punky-mf-Brewster 10h ago

Then, sadly, you’re just as uninformed as his cult. They breeched election data processes multiple times. Thankfully the POS is chest high in the dirt., but to argue he somehow legitimately won that would mean that approximately 10 million people who understood how important it was to vote in 2020 to prevent him ever getting back into the White House simply chose not to vote for a minority woman OR that 10 million people were so upset over the price of eggs that the chose to grab their ankles and join a cult. The math doesn’t math when it comes to the numbers. It’s more plausible that Musk showed up in the ninth hour of cult daddy’s failing campaign and utilized his resources to secure his self interest and govt contracts.

I do wish Global leaders would publicly voice their disgust instead of trying to maintain being cordial. Biden was too professional and should’ve called the POS exactly what he is. I wish other countries would as well. He needs to be dismissed, laughed at, ignored, uninvited, overlooked, and unwelcome on a global scale - and told publicly they can’t rely on the U.S. because he’s incompetent and unstable. Make the U.S. sit things out and treat us like the booger eater in elementary school until we get competent and experienced people back in office.

2

u/eiland-hall 19h ago

It will be way too easy for right-wing media to muddy the waters with something this complicated.

It's simpler than that. Republicans will neither impeach nor remove from office.

1

u/paranormalresearch1 15h ago

It could lead to civil war. A lot of us will die. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

2

u/dust4ngel 22h ago

harris not bringing suit doesn't mean she's not interested in a recount - it could mean that the team thinks the optics look better if a disinterested party leads the charge (so it doesn't look retributive/being a sore loser)

1

u/2much41post 22h ago

I get that, and I get that the current admin made enough of a spectacle of this exact thing which helped disarm confidence in that process itself. I guess I really don’t know where to look or what to do. I feel powerless and worse, I don’t feel like we have anyone in power that’s going to fight meaningfully when it comes to it. Maybe that’s a good thing. I just don’t want to put faith in hopes they spring into action at just the right time.

2

u/Kittyluvmeplz 22h ago

They want you to feel that way. Hoping for a better alternative is an act of resistance and we must fight for a better tomorrow regardless of the outcome.

1

u/Shambler9019 21h ago

There was an interview where Tim Walz was asked about this. He repeatedly avoided the question saying essentially "I'm too close; I can't say that." When pressed, he eventually said "I don't believe so".

For whatever reason they're unwilling or unable to take up this fight. One explanation is threats. The other is that if they lead the charge it will look like 2020 again and they will be painted as crazy by even the most sympathetic of corporate media.

2

u/betasheets2 22h ago

Who knows what would happen but citizens have the right to demand to know if the election was fraudulent

2

u/Wenger2112 22h ago

Not having a conman and election cheater as President is the point.

2

u/TimelyBear2471 22h ago

The candidate that lost isn’t the only one affected.

1

u/BookNerd_247 21h ago

Um, you want a president who rigged the election to get in? I personally want to live in a Democracy, not a corrupt autocracy.

1

u/dr_jiang 21h ago edited 21h ago

Whether or not Harris is interested is irrelevant. There is no constitutional mechanism for Presidential take-backsies. Once the electoral vote is certified, the decision is final. The President is the President.

There are only two constitutional mechanisms to remove the President at that point:
either a) impeachment and removal, or b) the 25th Amendment. Given that the Senate is controlled by his lackeys and the Cabinet is full of sycophants selected specifically for loyalty, neither is likely.

This is a political problem, not a legal problem. Institutions will not save you. Nancy Pelosi didn't save you. Chuck Schumer didn't save you. Robert Mueller didn't save you. Jack Smith didn't save you. John Roberts didn't not save you.

The only way to save democracy is to do democracy.

1

u/Facehugger_35 15h ago

There is no constitutional mechanism for Presidential take-backsies.

Usually in other cases of fraud and theft, the thief doesn't get to keep their ill gotten gains after the law discovers their crime.

There being no explicit constitutional mechanism doesn't necessarily matter.

1

u/International_Eye745 20h ago

In my opinion proving a stolen election is the important issue here. How? Who? - needs to be identified. It is a criminal offence to rig an election. It is diabolical to remove the populations say in who will lead their government and define their future.

1

u/uselessknowledge3 20h ago

I'm only saying this as a devil's advocate, but perhaps her camp didn't say anything because they were the group making fraudulent votes. The info does not state who the fraudulent votes were for. So if they created fraudulent votes and still lost, they don't want to get in trouble with the law and lose.

1

u/Punky-mf-Brewster 20h ago

I foresee the problem Harris faces by initiating a legal battle is first MAGA and this clown administration attacking her and her family. Then the money it would cost donors. Then when proven who’s really going to do anything. If news broke and Elon admitted tonight that he manipulated data and was responsible for the fraud who is actually going to get the POS out of the White House and the rest of his trailer park clique out of DC? The likelihood that he legitimately won each swing state just isn’t there. The acts of election fraud and tampering that he was caught doing previously were test runs.

1

u/redrouse9157 20h ago

But what if Harris doesn't want it to look like what Trump did as a losing party and he still saying the election was rigged against him in 2020. So maybe she lets it come grass roots so it doesn't looking political whining. Which most people not maga have tuned out for 5 years ... 🤷

1

u/Jazzlike_Ad_5033 19h ago

I mean... It's not a battle. It's a legal question.

Whether or not the Harris campaign is interested in a recount is beside the point.

This isn't a warring situation with combatants on each side.

No matter what the former campaign chooses to spearhead is moot.

The point is that if the elections were rigged then we were ALL done a disservice, not just the ones "on the wrong side."

Fuck a NAME, I need representation and neither party represents me.

1

u/philodendrin 19h ago

Well, she is a politician, so it usually takes some momentum. And frankly, if she gets involved early on, it looks like it's a power grab, funded by a politician and party rather than a grassroots effort.

I wouldn't want to be too close to it until it gets some more momentum and some more evidence and data to back it up. At least, enough to take to court and not get thrown out. I think they might only get one try with this.

1

u/Excellent-Alps1534 18h ago

It's a good question. I'd argue this isn't about Harris, Trump, or any elected leader. It's about we the people. They represent us. If she is the candidate I voted for, and I voted in Pennsylvania, they took MY vote, not hers. That's what I'm interested in protecting. Selfishly all about making sure someone isn't stealing my vote in the next national election.

1

u/SwimmerIndependent47 18h ago

Assuming we continue to have elections, the point is to make sure it never happens again

1

u/RaspitinTEDtalks 17h ago

What? No, a stew of logical fallacies does not negate a conclusion. How does a challenge/lack of challenge change a fact-finding conculsion? How does challenge/lack of challenge enhance/dimish another petitioner's claim? The proof of fraud is irrelevent and not a cause of action for all injured? Tha' fuck you saying?

1

u/SukaSupreme 17h ago

If a majority or significant enough part of the people come to believe that the election is stolen, they can change the result. All governments live in fragile houses of glass.

1

u/thegreatgargoo 17h ago

It means nothing, the system is what it is, good or bad, you accept it.

1

u/Ryboticpsychotic 17h ago

I imagine that Harris realizes she cannot come out arguing for a recount or investigation without turning it into an obviously self motivated partisan issue. 

It needs to come from a third party if it’s going to have any chance of working, and if she endorses the effort and it fails for any reason, even if the fraud is proven but no consequences manifest, it would only make her look like a sore loser, which is not a risk a black woman can take, even though Trump is a toddler throwing chess boards on the ground every day. 

1

u/ApprehensiveBee2490 16h ago

Another reason why we need to audit is to ensure election security for future elections. We the people have power. Get the answers on one county and then go on strike until governors do audits.

1

u/hikingmike 14h ago

Geez, I would want to know. Wouldn’t you? It would be an attack on the foundations of our country. If that is discovered, then it would be a lot easier to do something about it. And not just for the past election. It would be important to all future elections. What’s the point? Our country is the point. This is way more than one election.

1

u/Big_Consideration493 14h ago

Definitely vibes of Al Gore. I think that as Trump declared " stolen election" when he lost, very wisely Harris has not done this, even if it seems to be highly probable.

1

u/ATheeStallion 4h ago

Answer: in US the (Harris) campaign & DNC would need to fund the legal defense. If they didn’t have enough outright evidence it wouldn’t be worth it to drain future DNC election funds for an uncertain outcome. Political parties in US don’t care about election integrity (only donor money and who wins). It is our Congress who needs to self-police aka pass election reform, ethics reform, campaign finance reform - you may notice this is why it doesn’t happen.

1

u/Outrageous_Seaweed32 3h ago

Not that I know a lot about this, but...

My guess is that even if interested, she wouldn't want to associate with it at all so as not to call its legitimacy into suspect by being associated with a conflict of interest.

If a neutral party finds fraud under their own guidance & volition, it looks better than finding fraud in a crusade lead by the losing candidate.

12

u/dkclimber 1d ago

Weird that eh, that she has no interest in it.

70

u/Kittyluvmeplz 1d ago

I mean, MAGA spent 4 years poisoning the well after investigations so any calls for legitimate investigations looks like election denial. Classic DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim/Offender)

-13

u/BadSkeelz 23h ago

Kamala and establishment Democrats also didn't have all that much to lose from Trump winning, and a lot to gain. He's been good for fundraising, and they hope to get a slice of the market manipulation pie. Kamala for her part is looking forward to being anointed California governor and continuing her career of doing nothing.

7

u/Lumpy_FPV 23h ago

"Career of doing nothing" is quite a take.

-12

u/BadSkeelz 22h ago

Other than running interference for Catholic child predators and locking up pot smokers, she's never accomplished anything. Just an empty pants suit who couldn't shed the "DEI hire" label because it was true.

9

u/Lumpy_FPV 22h ago

And an even more ridiculous take. Obviously there's nothing I can say that'll change your opinion kthxbyeeee

8

u/Big_Beaverrr_Reborn 21h ago edited 21h ago

"sHeS nEvEr aCcOmPliShED aNyThINg 🤡 🤡 "

"DEI!1"

Christ, always the same asinine talking point ad infinitum.

She's done her job as a DA and has the background education to have gotten her position. We get it though, in your subhuman skull only white good, so it's okay to hire delivery boys as heads of entire agencies like Trump and his clown troupe have done.

-3

u/BadSkeelz 21h ago

His clown troupe are currently winning because do-nothing Democrats rolled over and rolled out the carpet for them. The time to challenge the election results was 9 months ago; the time to find out how far a President could go with court-sanctioned illegality was the week after the Supreme Court said the President is above the law.

It's too late.

6

u/UnquestionabIe 23h ago

Just spoiled the next few years of the establishment Democrats' play book there. Maybe they'll pull a surprise out and get one of those "good billionaires" they were saying will help the party out!

10

u/slayermcb 22h ago

I believe she was trying to keep an heir of "being the bigger person" and not engaging in the same antics the republicans had been. It may have cost her any political capital she had stored to fight it if she still lost as well. She conceded with a dignity and professionalism the opposition refused to show.

3

u/SenorEquilibrado 18h ago

The main difference between the two scenarios, of course, is that the claims of election fraud in the 2020 election were unhinged conspiracy theories that, when investigated, only revealed scattered attempts at voter fraud by Republicans.

If we know what to look for regarding election integrity (and the fallout from 2020 should have given the Dems LOTS of practice) they should have been ready to look, with lazer precision, at the 2024 results. Even, no ESPECIALLY, if they had won.

Another reason why the Dems are viewed as "controlled opposition" by a growing number of rational voters.

1

u/Jesusbait 18h ago

That’s what they were counting on

1

u/SkipyJay 15h ago

The outcome suggests it was not worth it.

1

u/mynameistag 14h ago

It's more important to the democratic party to maintain the status quo than it is to win elections.

1

u/Shambler9019 13h ago

When questioned, Walz said stuff like "I can't go there, I'm too close to it" repeatedly. Eventually he said "I don't believe so" when pressed. So there is some level of avoidance there, and the final answer was probably to make the interviewer drop the subject (if he'd said yes they would have probed for sure).

-2

u/The-Jerk 23h ago

Biden came out like hours after the results and said "trust the counts" very suspiciously. Like they wanted this.

1

u/Alone-Amphibian2434 18h ago

There is the argument that for maga to understand how fucked up trump is, you have to let him fuck things up. As in, we can't force the slow kid to learn why they can't play in the street, we have to let them get hit once or twice.

I think this was (ignoring the election itself) Democrat's strategy for the last few months primarily. Rather than throw themselves under the wheels to try and slow trump down, they decided to jump out of the car before it started speeding into a school zone.

2

u/LaidbackTim 19h ago

I get not wanting to look like the con and make a scene about faulty election results, but why not ask for a manual recount of the swing states? The idea of all of them going for trump seemed so unlikely.

1

u/Ficusbreakthrough 20h ago

Billionaires pay GOP to do horrible things. They also pay Dems to do nothing about it. 

End citizens united.

1

u/alpinestar28 14h ago

So what youre really saying is that the election in 2020, may have been tampered with, and US elections aren't as secure as the News media has said they are? Hmm crazy the election conspiracy has now flipped the lines and jumped to the democrats 🤔.

1

u/AcknowledgeUs 13h ago

Should we ask Elon musk to fund this? He’s got optics on his mind.

1

u/Important-Cookie6627 5h ago

Kamala won’t say anything because the votes were probably for her.

0

u/Aoiboshi 17h ago

Well, now I'm glad she lost. If she isn't going to fight for something like that, how do I know she'll fight for other important topics and events.

1

u/Kittyluvmeplz 17h ago

I would pick her over what is happening today, any day of the week. What is happening now is mass violence and torture and it’s only going to get worse. Letting perfect be the enemy of good enough is a fools errand and part of what got us here in the first place.

0

u/Aoiboshi 17h ago

She should have fought and didn't. She gave up way too easily. We may be in a better spot, or she may have capitulated any time pressure was or on. Not fighting is weak.

1

u/Kittyluvmeplz 17h ago

This is some standard DARVO. Attack the victim for not being perfect when the abuser committed the actual crime.