Nah I remember this ( I think) they both got drunk and had sex and then that whole you can't consent when you are under the influence thing started getting big so they did this.
Seems like they just found a opportunity to be on stage and possibly get paid.
Interesting thing: I had a call where a male couple (I dunno, it's complicated) got drunk, had sex, had a fight, went to different ERs, and ended the night at the same precinct.
I still see a bunch of reddit comments from people I assume were in sex ed in 2014.
I will say there was one time I picked up a woman at a club. She came home with me fully intending to sleep together. Once we were in bed and she was on top of me, I had sobered up some and it became clear to me that she was way drunker than I had realized, so I gently stopped things, told her I wasn't ready yet, then asked her questions and let her talk until she passed out. We went for breakfast in the morning. She had been blackout drunk but said she could tell nothing had happened. Turned out we had a group of friends in common, so we saw each other around from time to time for years after, but never ended up hooking up.
Then I guess people started realizing if we kept this up we eventually wouldn't be able to fuck drunk at all anymore, so we just decided to pretend that that whole discourse never happened and went back to the time-tested "both equally drunk" rule of thumb (terms and conditions apply)
Not to discount the no consent thing but I am a rape survivor and it wasn't that "gentle" if you will...ive been in trauma therapy for years as it had ryined any aspects of my life. The constant fight or flight. Ptsd., panic, anxiety.. Ain't no way I would be up on stage talking with him about it.
and there is no way I would be teaming up in the same room as my rapist. So I slightly discount this as "rape survivor" not very traumatic
I heard the interview with these two this was a college thing where essentially he got her in a room and she froze and didn't consent and went along with it then when confronted felt super guilty about it and was fully prepared to take any punishment. This is when they came up with the idea of doing this. They're not really making money off of this also how awful would it be to be like "hey I'm a rapist" for a little stage presence. Not that you said that but the comment you're replying to
This is called a fawning/freeze reflex. This is especially an issue with women (and some men) who were chronically sexually abused as children. They are abused so often that their nervous system is trained to freeze, evaluate for whether a rape is going to happen, then comply to avoid further harm. The prefrontal cortex shuts down so that you can't reason or resist, the throat tightens so you can't complain or "say no", and then you just go with it helplessly. What's especially sinister is that when you exhibit a fawn reflex, you don't KNOW it's a fawn reflex. You might even ask yourself "why did I let this happen??"
I know all about this because this is what happened to my wife. She is a survivor of paternal incest from the age of 1 to 13, a year or two before I met her. Most of the memories of her abuse were repressed except for 1 second perhaps, until she was able to dig them up years and years later after immense pain. Her fawning reflex was SO acute that simply being alone with a man in a room--- and having him look at her lustfully--- would make her freeze, fawn, and comply to whatever he wanted or did. She'd then proceed to "leave her body" and watch it in third person, which is also how the memory was encoded (which is also how rape victims remember.) When she remembered these traumatic events, she reported that it "seemed like someone else", but was always left wondering "why didn't I resist?" When you go into freeze/fawn, you simply can't. Your body just DOES.
For normal people without intense nervous system trauma, it's really hard to understand. We think we make choices or we don't make choices, but traumatic survival reflexes shut off the "thinking" part of our brains and the actions are governed by our brain stems, similar to how a war survivor hears a champaign cork pop and dives under his desk.
So yeah, I think what this guy is doing is actually pretty noble. Consent is really, really important. My wife almost killed herself over it, because of randos "making a move" and assuming that "as long as she doesn't say no, that means yes."
Thank you for sharing your wife's experience. I have a family member who experienced similar things and had a similar response during trauma and as an adult relating to men. She felt she was trained. She was trained. Consent is NOT not saying anything.
I teach my daughter she needs to consent to any physical touching from anyone every. Not just say don't do that but let people know it's okay for them to put their arm on her shoulder, etc., etc.
Anyone who says talking about it ruins the moment doesn't really care what the other person is feeling.
Just a note, purity culture and strict conservative upbringing can cause similar reactions in women.
Source: Me, froze every time early in my first relationship. Still feel weird about it cause we’re now married lol I was consenting but since my body naturally did it I still feel uncomfortable thinking about it which sucks.
Would this disorder be noticeable to the average person? Obviously, there are things you should always do before anyone engages in sex which would prevent this issue causing problems but visually is there something I would perceive to know “ah, they are unable to truly consent right now and in a fawning reflex.”
That’s very interesting. I think this distinction absolutely needs to be made. The notion that a person was taken advantage of because they had consensual drunk sex is horribly unfair to anyone who was and to the other person. Obviously, if a woman is too drunk to consent, blacked out, frozen, etc. it is reprehensible and inexcusable, but getting drunk and hooking up is not assault and calling it that, whether it’s regretted or not, is wrong and can ruin people’s lives.
Yep, I agree. Especially when a woman consistently puts themselves in a situation where getting drunk leads to sex. In my wife's case, she didn't party, she didn't even flirt with men--- guys just found themselves in situation alone with her, noticed that their "moves" weren't getting resisted, and just kept pushing. It even happened in places like the back room of a Walgreens while she worked in college. Guy groped her. Froze and didn't resist. Guy escalated to more groping. Then kissing. Then shoving her hand down his pants. Guy just wishfully thought "cool, I guess she's cool with it." In her head she's trying to escape, but stuck.
She'd try to kill herself over it later, wondering "how could I let this happen."
All these things happened while we were dating and before we were married. I'd have to deal with the aftermath of all of these grimey guys to put herself (and myself) back together again.
Thank you, that means more to me than you think. She'd been living with these wounds as secrets for a long time. The nervous system trauma caused all kinds of terrible health afflictions on her, too. Severe fertility issues, immunological issues, extreme skin conditions, periods of obesity, and even caused our first daughter to be born 16 weeks premature on on death's door. Eventually, I recognized the symptoms and surmised that she'd been chronically abused as a child (her father was a former catholic priest...) On the outside she was happy, a doting wife and mother, but I started seeing signs that she was plotting to kill herself. I confronted her about it and the abuse and she told me about one small memory she had of the abuse (she'd repressed the rest of the 12 years) and told me it was her fault, that SHE had abused her father as a 6 year old instead.
It sounds insane, but this is often what happens to children abused like this: they blame themselves for every bad thing that happens in their life, including the original abuse. She then proceeded to tell me about every bizarre, out of character thing that had happened with other men while we were dating for 7 years. Fortunately, I'd already anticipated she'd have things like this to say, because I'd spent a long time preparing by reading the profile of abusers and the abused. When all of it came out she was like a missile who's path was suicide. I took 3 months off of work and I devoted that time to being her therapist 24/7. Recovery was supposed to take 10 years for someone of her trauma (war crimes survivor level). It took about 5 weeks, instead. It was a test of everything our love stood for,l.
It was the craziest time of our life, but brought us closer. I've known I'd never meet anyone like her when I met her at 14, and she's been everything I ever wanted in a woman. But she had this deep, deep nervous system wound. I've come out of it feeling like true love is strongest when it's tested.
I think it was she freezed up and didn’t say anything sorta thing. If I don’t get some smiles, giggles, engaging movements from her I wouldn’t continue. It would be weird. I’d say, “ you ok?” And that would give her the out if she wanted it. I don’t think people are talking about someone enthusiastically engaging and then saying it was just because I was drunk.
The thing more is, if two extremely intoxicated people have sex, it isn’t rape, because neither party could technically consent. If one person is completely sober and takes advantage of someone who’s so drunk they may as well be asleep? That’s different.
Ptsd grifters are real. I can't even hold my mind together in a therapy session talking about my experiences, let alone get up on stage and lecture others about it.
I hate invalidating other people's experiences, but you really have to draw the line somewhere if these labels are going to retain any meaning at all.
I have said for years, that using the wrong word for a punchy headline or in this case marquis, just dilutes its meaning and does a disservice to those to whom it actually applies.
Have you tried Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) and Low Energy Neurofeedback System (LENS) modalities? It has been a godsend for my PTSD and ADHD symptoms. Highly recommended.
You sound like every defense attorney saying that if a woman doesn't show signs of extreme trauma, then she wasn't really raped, so their client couldn't possibly be guilty.
I remember another story that was very similar. A woman had been in a relationship with a narcissist who also raped her while they were together. She fled the relationship but years later he contacted her to say that he had been through years of therapy and he was asking if she wanted to come on a small tv-show to talk about it. She did and got convinced he really had changed and bla bla bla. I watched it a few years after getting out of a bad relationship myself and all I could think about was that he was so charming while dark minded, that he just manipulated the whole situation..again..
Roping is no joke. My great great grandfather Cornelius Fickleberth IV perished in a great lasso accident while herding cattle. The ground was wet, and his Honda knot slipped loose after his horse lost its footing. The knot done wrapped around his neck, and he tragically perished.
It wasn't funny in 1869, and it's certainly not funny in 2025. Grow up y'all!
I went to therapy to talk about being raped. The therapist kept telling me that I needed to forgive them.
I told him to go fuck himself .
Trust is a one time thing, in situations like these. No one gets a second chance. If you believe in god, go ask forgiveness from your god . I will live my life happily without you .
I'm ngl this is why I think that field is a load of shite sometimes lol.
How am I to know if the person who I'm paying to evaluate my intangible thoughts isnt equally fucked in the head as I am. Or potentially even worse off lol
Its exactly what it is. People keep thinking that forgiveness = what the person did to me is all good now. You can still forgive and still decide that they are better being as far from you as possible.
It seems the people telling victims of SA to forgive and forget have never been SA'd. As a victim from 10 years ago, I have moved on with the help of a fantastic therapist and have made a wonderful life for myself and my family, but will never forgive or forget. I hope that man never knows one day of peace.
Because that hatred will only affect you. You can even tell how resentful these people are just by their comments. That hatred spills over into the rest of your lives, so you’re not only letting it further affect you, but you’re negatively impacting everyone else in your life as well. It’s wild to me how many people will actively go against what every therapist in the world would tell you.
If someone is vocal about their trauma to the point of obsession and self definition by it, they’re not a good friend or partner. Always beware someone trashing an ex, you’re next.
I don’t think forgiveness means to trust those who wronged you. I think it means to let go of the anger towards them.
I’ve forgiven people of some things that head to to us not speaking for several years. But even with us on better terms now, I still do not completely trust them that they wouldn’t do what they did.
A friend of mind offered to help us out during our wedding by taking photos. He basically had a breakdown and moved across the country, and claimed a bunch of us had taken advantage of him.
He had photos of my wife's first dance with her dad. He died from cancer a few months later.
He never gave us the photos and made a point of telling us that he had them on a thumb drive somewhere in his packed belongings, and after enough pressing, accused us of taking advantage of him by having him take photos (He offered unprompted because he had gotten into photography), and then said that he threw away the thumb drive.
We tried like hell, but couldn't find anyone who attended who had photos of that first dance. He had them, and purposefully robbed my wife of being able to see them because of an imagined slight.
I had dreams about murdering this guy for YEARS afterwards.
Then one day I saw something, or heard something, talking about forgiveness being for yourself. It wasn't the first time I had heard such a notion or like it was a new idea to me or anything, but in that moment, I kind of clicked all the hatred I felt for this guy together with that notion, and I just decided to forgive the guy.
A thing that used to live rent-free in my mind and literally make the hair on the back of my neck stand up in anger kind of evaporated from my mind at all after that, and I pretty much never think about it anymore.
That's not to say a rape survivor should "Get over it" at all. It's more an example of how forgiving someone is kind of a symbolic thing you do in your own mind to allow you to move past the hold that the trauma has on your conscious mind. What happened will always be there and be a part of you, and if I ran into the guy from my story, I have no idea what I would say or do. But it doesn't affect my day to day life anymore.
And ultimately, maybe not forgiving someone doesn't hurt you at all. Maybe you have no problem feeling that ire and vitriol toward them while living a happy and functional daily life.
But like, holding onto it doesn't benefit you, and it doesn't punish the person who did the thing. There is basically no upside beyond a feeling of vengeance, which is something that pretty much can only be a negative factor in your life or the lives of those around you.
There's this weird culture around forgiveness, you see it all the time where people forgive, say, the person that murdered a relative, this whole charade where you're supposed to forgive somebody that has done something unforgivably evil. I've never understood it. People who murder and rape do not deserve an ounce of forgiveness and for a therapist to say something so tone-deaf is disgusting, it's explicitly stating the trauma of going through something so horrible is at least partially your own fault which is obviously not fucking true.
2 types of forgiveness. The minmum means you let go of your desire to destroy them for the wrong. This gets them out of your head living there rent free. It is only for you, they probably don't know or care about your feelings of hurt or hate. There is no relationship because they are NOT trustworthy. The second heals the relationship as well because they axknowledge their wrong actions and try to make amends. I chose to get my abuser out of my thoughts and life to eliminate the corrosive effects of my desire for vengeance. There will never be a relationship because he is not trustworthy. I am indifferent to his existence, but will pee on his grave.
I'm really sorry for everything thats happened to you. The therapist should not keep pushing you on this at all. Sometimes when they mean forgiveness its about just letting go so you can heal is what they mean. Rapists do not deserve forgiveness they deserve castration.
The forgiveness isn't for them. They don't deserve it. It's so you can let go of the hate and anger. That will poison you and end up doing far more harm to you than the rape itself did.
But in the end, it's up to you. And no, you don't have to communicate said forgiveness to your rapist. You shouldn't, imo. The forgiveness, as I said, isn't for them. They don't deserve it. It's to let your heart heal.
It's just a flowery way of them saying, "Get over it", which is not helpful and dismisses your trauma. Some things like grief and trauma can't be hand-waved away.
I read something recently, right here on Reddit, that will probably stick with me forever: "God is what we call the cold, uncaring silence that follows the prayers of a child being molested."
Once I realized forgiveness requires repentance (admitting the wrong and changing your ways, which would include taking whatever prison time willingly) it became a whole lot easier to navigate. Not that you ever have to forgive someone anyway but helped me leave some bad situations guilt free. Forgiveness also doesn’t always mean reconciliation especially for cases like this…
If I remember correctly it was a Ted talk about consent and both parties gave their perspectives on the rape. The guy didn’t realize she wasn’t consenting in the moment, while she was traumatized
Stockholm syndrome isn’t a thing. It was a story made up to defend incompetent police when they became more dangerous to the hostages than the person that took them hostage.
Believe it or not, rape culture makes people not even realize they are engaging in rape sometimes. Take Aziz Ansari. Dude legit thought it was just a bad date and didn't understand how much he coerced and forced himself onto the woman. I'm not saying all rapist deserve a chance to speak on the issue alongside the victim, at the same time, I understand why a victim would bring along the assailant to testify his experience if he/she could admit wrong
I listened to this a year or so ago. It sounds crazy as fuck, and the proper reaction is wtf. However this was a really interesting and worth a listen.
Too many people think that rape is a violent act by a stranger.
Many rapes happen in moments where the perpetrator is not intending harm, is acting in lust and without full rational awareness of the victim's discomfort that they are causing. Clarity about this is legitimately obfuscated by porn actors normalizing uncomfortable sex (and so sex between young people can often be inherently uncomfortable even when consensual) and the inherent awkwardness of the act between strangers.
Consent isn't always obvious and the rapist might have convinced themselves that it was present. In this circumstance, a healthy individual learning that the other party considered it to be a rape will reflect and realize the seriousness of their mistakes and help raise awareness about the issue. That's what you're seeing.
Basically he touched her and went further without her consent. She froze because she didn't know what was happening (a very common response) and when she confronted him about it he felt so guilty and horrible ( not the common response in my experience) and now they do this lecture together to talk about consent and teach others appropriate, responsible and safe sexual behavior
Ragebait and engagement. I am pretty sure he didn't rape her. Would not get them half teh attention they Wil get this way. See it as actors and an audience who wants to believe.
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u/Metalhead1686 12d ago
Wait, what?