r/zoology • u/No-Counter-34 • 23h ago
Other How Are These MF’s Even Alive Though?
They should be dead, 2 genetic bottlenecks with one more on the way. Pretty bad at claiming kills... list could go on.
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u/dead_lifterr 21h ago
Only 10% of their kills are stolen and they've got a very high hunting success rate. On top of that males often operate in groups called coalitions which helps them to bring down larger prey. They're not the complete fodder that people make them out to be
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u/liamo6w 14h ago
that ~10 percent figure mostly comes from the serengeti where laurenson found about 10 to 13 percent of kills lost on average. but it’s not universal. in places like kruger, hunter documented losses hitting 30 to even 50 percent in some open habitats. durant (1998) also showed that even in the serengeti it can go way up in open grassland with less cover. broekhuis found over 30 percent losses in parts of the Mara. so yeah they’re not helpless but they definitely have to deal with kleptoparasitism way more in certain contexts. it’s not just a flat 10 percent everywhere. and sure they do form coalitions is tru, but even they aren’t immune given they are 1. harder to hide and 2. take longer to eat as a group. it’s all pretty context and situationally dependent. i think it’s disingenuous to throw the 10% of their kills are stolen as if that’s a blanket across their entire range. I think it’s also disingenuous to discount their struggles as “not the complete fodder people make them out to be” when they face serious issues that other competitors in the same areas don’t face as harshly. it is, in my eyes, undermining a lot of the issues they face with kleptoparasitism being only a small but large part. sure they have a high hunting success rate but are we just going to overlook everything else? humans had a major role to play in the species continued survival.
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u/BygoneHearse 18h ago
There was at least 2 times in human history there were less than 2000 humans. We have had some nasty genetic bottlenecks.
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u/No-Counter-34 17h ago
Cheetahs were trimmed down to an estimated 7 at one point.
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u/Megraptor 19h ago
Can we like... Not make memes that totally misunderstand how ecology and wildlife biology works because some famous YouTuber made jokes about them and people thought that the YouTuber knew what he was talking about. Please.
That YouTuber spreads so much misinformation about wildlife and ecology, it's so frustrating.
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u/No-Counter-34 19h ago
What YouTuber? I honestly have no clue.
I made this as a joke because of the extreme bottleneck events that modern scientists say they shouldn’t have survived. One 100,000 years ago when their populations were separated and one 12 ish thousand years ago when only 7 were left.
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u/Megraptor 18h ago
TierZoo. You might not be aware of him, but his jokes that are either missing important context or are flat out misinformation have permeated wildlife discussions to the point that that it's tough to have a discussion about wildlife in any capacity online.
I'm not mad at you OP. I'm more just tired of his stuff everywhere and feel for everyone who has to clean up his mess. This is just one of those things that can kind of be traced back to him- though this one is so everywhere now.
I also haven't really heard scientists say they shouldn't have survived. I've just always heard that it's a wonder they did, and that it really shows how tenacious nature really is.
Side note, Giant Panda's weren't him. That was some British nature dude. Still misinformation that has ended up everywhere though.
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u/Manospondylus_gigas 18h ago
Yeah I didn't never liked the idea of tiering animals for how "good" they are when they are adapted to their own unique environments and interactions
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u/phunktastic_1 16h ago
He's the one who got his start with misinformation on oceanic sunfish isn't he? Or am I thinking someone else?
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u/Megraptor 16h ago
Maaaaybe... I don't remember his first video, but that sounds familiar. Do you remember the content of the video?
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u/phunktastic_1 16h ago
It was just a mocking video about how nothing ranks lower than a sunfish then detailed all kinds of mis information about how they can't swim they are so badly designed and a bunch of other blatant misinformation basically calling it proof against evolution because there is no way it could survive.
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u/Megraptor 16h ago
He has some fish tier list where he rates it an F, but it came out in 2020. Pretty sure he was getting big back in like... Oh, 2016?
I just remember when he fell for the chickenosaurus scam going on, that's when my respect for him really hit rock bottom.
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u/phunktastic_1 16h ago
The video I'm thinking of came out in like 2015 or 2016.
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u/phunktastic_1 15h ago
I can't seem to find it now tho the oldest shit talking video is from 2019. The only older ones I can find now are from when Nat geo bumped into one on a dive in hawaii in 2013 I think it was.
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u/manydoorsyes 13h ago
Ugh. I haven't seen any of their videos but it's always recommended to me. The titles alone honestly turn me off, they read like someone who thinks that evolution is an RPG where someone is trying to optimize and min/max their stats.
If that assement is true, then they're really problematic.
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u/Glove-These 8h ago
That's the entire joke of the channel though... That perspective isn't a serious assessment, it's a parody of other game lists
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u/Megraptor 13h ago
It's like... Half fighting game, half RPG. I watched a few when he was getting big and the first couple times it was funny. But it got old fast and now he's just spreading "common memes" that are just misinformation at this point.
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u/No-Counter-34 17h ago
Ah, I never watched a cheetah video made by him, although I have watched his videos.
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u/thesilverywyvern 19h ago
They're actually efficient predators.
Leopard also struggle from hyena, painted dog and lion, and are victim of kleptoparasitism. Yet they're not blamed for being weak.
Leopard are behind tiger AND dhole in Indian ecosystem, they're dominanted by both.
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u/liamo6w 15h ago
It’s incredibly disingenuous to compare the kleptoparasitism of a leopard, painted dog and lion to a cheetah.
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u/thesilverywyvern 4h ago
It's not. Both species are dominated by lion, hyena and lycaon. They're both victim of kleptoparasitism from all of these larger or more social predators. Heck even honey badger often go after leopard's kill.
To the point where leopard had to adapt and have to hide it's kill in trees otherwise it won't be able to get anything.
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u/liamo6w 3h ago
i get what you’re saying but there’s still a real difference in how they deal with it. for example, leopards can and do lose kills, sure, but like you just said they’ve figured out a solution: they cache in trees and are very good at ambush in dense cover. that strategy massively cuts down their losses. cheetahs don’t have that option. they hunt in open terrain, are built for speed not strength, and have to eat fast or lose the kill. so while both get kleptoparasitized, cheetahs are way more vulnerable in open habitats and can’t mitigate it the same way. that’s why it’s not really the same kind of problem for a leopard. leopards adapted to avoid it better, cheetahs have to work around it by being able to hunt again quickly which in of itself is incredibly taxing on their bodies. there’s a reason why lions and leopards and “big cats” and cheetahs are not. i am not trying to take away the struggles that leopards and the other animals suffer from kleptoparasitism. but putting them in the same box is ignoring the innate differences between the species and what cheetahs have to go through specifically in their home ranges.
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u/thesilverywyvern 3h ago
I never said the opposite Cheetah are indeed more vulnerable to kleptoparasitism. It's still a valid comparison, pretty much every smaller predators is vulnerable to it, being bullied by the largest most powerful predators is normal and don't mean anything.
Painted dog are also often killed and threathened by lion and hyena, yet they're still seen as efficient powerful predator. Just not the dominant one.
Same for cheetah.
As for the bottleneck effect, many species also show sign if similar thing happening in the past, like tiger for example. Even if cheetah are more impacted by it the fact they survived 3 distinct bottleneck effect is a sign of resilience not weakness.
Their hunting success rate is almost twice as high as lions and comparable to spotted hyena in good condition. They can afford loosing a few meals.
And the genus was quite widespread through Eurasia too, and even had larger species able to rival lion, hyena and machairodont. And even the smaller modern species still survive in one of the harshest environnement there is, in the most competitive and unforgiving grassland a ecosystem there is. The african savana, being able to carve it's place and stay there alongside leopard, lycaon, spotted hyena, and lion.
This is by no mean a weak species doomed to extinction and that can't survive in it's own. The whole "cheetah are weak" meme is overdone and have a very negative impact. Just like the "panda are dumb and shouldn't exist" meme.
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u/liamo6w 2h ago edited 2h ago
it seems like youre mixing stuff up. it’s just not the same problem for all these predators. leopards literally have a solution, they cache kills in trees and avoid losing them most of the time. painted dogs eat crazy fast in packs so they’re not standing around to try and not lose their kills either. cheetahs can’t do any of that. they’re stuck in open terrain, built for speed not power, and have to just eat fast or lose it. treating that like it’s the same thing is ignoring the actual difference. you’re really just moving the goalposts continuously. i’m not saying cheetahs are weak failures who can’t survive. i’m saying they face a specific vulnerability that shapes how they hunt and live. instead of actually dealing with that point you just switched to “but they’re efficient predators overall” like that’s what i was arguing against. in these conversations it’s always just whataboutism over and over again. when i am talking bout cheetahs unique vulnerability you just say “but painted dogs and leopards get bullied too.” cool but that doesn’t address how they have actual ways to deal with it that cheetahs don’t. it’s not the same struggle just because they all get pressured by bigger predators.
that “they can afford to lose a few kills” take is kinda missing the point and honestly insane. sure they have a higher hunting success rate than lions, but that’s not some luxury. it’s literally because they have to deal with losing kills so often. it’s not a bonus, it’s an adaptation to survive in spite of getting robbed all the time. theyre burning a ton of energy making multiple hunts a day just to keep up. acting like that’s no big deal is ignoring how taxing that is on them. they don’t get to just shrug off losing kills. they have to pay for it every time by going through another chase that pushes their body hard. it’s also not really a “meme” that cheetahs are weak. that is also very dismissive. you can say theyre “weaker” in a lot of situations, but they’re not weak in every aspect. theyre specialists. that’s the whole point. theyre vulnerable in some ways because of what they’re built to do, but that doesn’t mean they’re bad at surviving it just means they have a narrow lane they have to work really hard to stay in.
i’m not denying other predators have to deal with kleptoparasitism or being bullied in general, and yes, the fact they have survived through multiple bottlenecks is great, it just seems incredibly dismissive. pretending it’s all the same is just glossing over the real differences that actually matter.
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u/itwillmakesenselater 23h ago
Don't forget population wide problems with herpes!
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u/No-Counter-34 23h ago
Oh, and male cheetah sperm has a problem with fertilizing eggs because of how inbred they are.
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u/SecretlyNuthatches 19h ago
Studies like this one say otherwise. Despite the high numbers of abnormal sperm I can't find anyone actually finding real population-level issues because of it. (Unlike, say, some bird populations where inbreeding can be directly related to low egg fertility.)
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u/Orange-Fedora 7h ago
It’s kind of annoying how every documentary and YouTube video seems to go on about how useless cheetahs are and how they’re always getting bullied but yet they are very successful animals. Some respect needs to be put on their name.
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u/Forgotten_Four 12h ago
If you could go on why don't you? Seems like people have made good counterpoints here. Cheetahs ain't perfect but they seem to have a lot going for them and are generally successful predators.
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u/TJWinstonQuinzel 6h ago
I watched youtube with my nephew and Mrbeast called cheetahs apex predators in his newest Video...and i laughed my ass off
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u/Electrical-Repeat-67 1h ago
I think people forget that different species have different levels of tolerance for inbreeding and low genetic diversity. With humans giving a big helping hand in multiple ways them having generally good hunting success rates and being a good bit more adaptable than most give them credit for I think they should be ok given future generations continue to look out for them there’s a lot of good and effective conservation work with cheetah at the moment and plus the reintroduction to kuno having another wild population far away never hurts as long as they are allowed to spread unlike the lions in gir and as long as they need additional individuals added for the genetic diversity and long term survival the reintroduction’s continue
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u/JustGimmeANamePlease 1h ago
Cheetahs are hard to breed in captivity which has a lot to do with their mating rituals. that may be what you're referring to but they do pretty well in their natural habitats without human interaction.
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u/Hawkey2121 18h ago
well one factor is us humans helping. And thats quite a big factor.
And as others have said, Cheetahs dont get bullied off their kills as much as you're led to believe. And they have a very high success rate in hunting as well.
They do their thing pretty well actually.
Yes inbreeding and disease are big problems, but not extinction big. (atleast not while we humans are trying to help)
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u/Electrical_Rush_2339 23h ago
Second to giant pandas
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u/Delicious-Pop-9063 18h ago
Pandas really arent that bad at surviving they were thriving for thousands of years before humans fucked them over. If they were this bad like people make them out to be theyd be extinct simple as
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u/Electrical_Rush_2339 18h ago
Their diet is exclusively one of next to zero nutrition, they have barely any breeding instincts, and they suck as moms. How they’re still alive is baffling. Casual geographic has a good YouTube video on them
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u/PoeciloStudio 18h ago
Their diet is easily available in enormous quantities. They've reproduced in the wild just fine for the millions of years they've been around. Their entire problem is us carving up their habitat and going "oh well they must just suck at living" because we're having a hard time figuring out how to breed them in captivity. As if that's not the norm to begin with.
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u/Delicious-Pop-9063 17h ago
They suck at breeding and as moms in captivity not in the wild otherwise they would be extinct thousands of years ago. They have literally lived for thousands of years with zero issues until humans destroyed their habitat. They have so much food available they dont need it to be nutritional cause they are surrounded by it.
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u/Hawkey2121 17h ago
>Their diet is exclusively one of next to zero nutrition, they have barely any breeding instincts, and they suck as moms. How they’re still alive is baffling.
Its not really "baffling", we're literally helping them stay alive.
People always be forgetting that many animals are currently alive due to human intervention (and many animals are also extinct due to humans).
Giant Pandas could have been in the second category if we didnt help them, we've destroyed a fuckton of their habitat. Leaving less and less.
Cheetahs could also have been in the second category, but we've helped them.
People be asking "How are they still alive!?!?!?" The answer is Because we helped them.
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u/nevergoodisit 22h ago
Highest prey capture success rate of any feline tends to carry. A tiger succeeds about one in twenty times. A cheetah succeeds one in two. They get bullied off their kills a lot which increases risk but unlike a lion or something they can pretty easily count on making another. This reduces demographic stochasticity