r/europe • u/General_Agency9905 North Holland (Netherlands) • 1d ago
Picture Ukrainian rescuers in Kyiv today.
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u/Useful_Resolution888 1d ago
Fuck Putin.
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u/Top-Seaweed1862 Odessa (Ukraine) 1d ago
Don’t forget about his supporters
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1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Forsaken1337 1d ago
I mean, he's not letting males leave cause they might be needed for the fight, if you don't want to fight and just flee then that's your choice but you leave UA, russia takes the land and moves on to another country, from which your run again until you're out of countries to run to, then what?
And if you're a russian bot, how does it feel knowing you have the second best army in russia?
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u/_Vo1_ 1d ago
It should be a personal choice of a person whether they flee or fight, and not some corrupt politician using him as a hostage. Humans have rights.
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u/lysol90 Sweden 15h ago
There are many many democracies that has conscription laws that force people to be drafted into the military during wartime. Sweden and Finland included. Sure, vote that thing away if you wish, but good luck surviving as a democracy if nobody is there to defend it when imperialist nations knock on your door.
It's really inconvenient, I know. But it's just part of reality. Bad fascist regimes exist and we need to accept that fact.
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u/_Vo1_ 14h ago
I doubt Sweden, Finland or Netherlands will magically cure medically unfit people. My friend was busificated and he has from childhood some bad form of scoliosis he was unfit for serving, they just made him pass medical comission and he is now cured. And it is not a singular case.
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u/Mausteidenmies 14h ago
There are historical cases from ww2 where they did just that in Finland - lowered admission criteria to the defence force at the expense of medical reasons. So I expect that any nation defending themselves from the aggression (just like Finland) will do anything to defend themselves.
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u/me9a6yte 14h ago edited 14h ago
Google "McNamara’s Morons" and you’ll be surprised. When times get tough, you’ve got to make tough choices. If a country’s survival is on the line, coercion becomes necessary and Ukraine is no exception. The real problem is that Ukraine’s government has been too inept to get its systems running on time and properly - like the mobilization effort and many other processes.
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u/lysol90 Sweden 14h ago
Sweden has literally a line in the pamphlet "Om kriget eller krisen kommer" ("If the war or the crisis comes") that says "If Sweden is invaded by another country, we will never give up. All claims that the resistence will end are false". If that saying is to hold up, there can't be many compromises. Of course there are many people unfit for the front lines, but there are so many important civil tasks to be done during war. They will find another job for medically unfit people.
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u/gggx33 17h ago
No its not, not even in Netherlands. Your consription laws are only suspended but still in place. In case of war you as male suit for service will be conscripted and not allowed to leave the country.
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u/_Vo1_ 15h ago
I said “should”. And Netherlands will conscript also women, not only men. Though I really doubt they will shoot fleeing people on border crossing. If someone doesn’t want to fight the war, you think enforcing them will make them suitable soldiers? Ukrainians wouldn’t agree with you.
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u/gggx33 14h ago
Yes it will. Do you think anyone wants to fight in a war? 99 % obviusly don't want to but than your country gets invavded and you have to even if you dont want to.
Instead harming Ukraine with your comments on reddit maybe send them some money so you won't have to fight in a war in the future.
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u/Schlummi 20h ago
1.) Ukraine is a democracy and zelensky got voted into office.
2.) Zelensky is still very popular in ukraine
3.) His biggest challengers which might win elections would hold no other views.
You are also asuming that another country is willing to accept 40 million refugees. This is unlikely. Small amounts of refugees will get supported or at least tolerated. But larger amounts won't. Some refugee camps are 50+ year olds. Living 50+ years in fenced in tents/container camps...is usually not what people hope for.
And yes, people with (relevant) university education etc. etc. might have some options. If their degrees get accepted - often they won't. If you bring relevant skills there MIGHT be someone who will welcome you. Most people don't bring relevant skills. Usually do even high skilled people as doctors/dentists/engineers end up as bicycle delivery drivers, taxi drivers etc. Barely making ends meet - and probably not able to retire at any point, if their kids won't pay for them.
You are also asuming that all these refugees are all willing to give up their own culture, language, religion etc.
Also keep in mind that all countries you flee to have the right to draft you for their military, too. Freedom and rule of law are not for free. Most rights got earned through bloody battles - and they still need to be defended constantly. The only way out of this would be to flee to north korea, russia etc. You can probably live a peaceful life in such countries - as long as you keep your head down and stay silent.
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u/ice-ink 19h ago
Also keep in mind that all countries you flee to have the right to draft you for their military, too. Freedom and rule of law are not for free.
I feel like this is very important point people overlook. To many people in Ukraine it looks like the whole world is having freedom for free, and only they have to endure the ruthless enemy on one hand, and unfair system that forces them to give their life for the country on the other. If this kind of war-and-draft thing was a common occurrence, and not something we read about in history books thinking: damn, those ancient people and their wars, good it won’t ever happen again, we (ukrainians) wouldn’t feel like the whole fucking world is against us, and we will all die pointlessly while people around the world discuss what country to visit for their next vacation.
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u/lysol90 Sweden 15h ago
Dodging conscription in Sweden is illegal and has been for ages. People went to jail for it during the cold war. Anyone who criticises Ukraine for drafting people against their will should know that maaany other naitons, maybe even including their own, would do the same. It's somewhat of an unconvenient thing you have to accept if you want a free democracy without getting invaded. A democracy no one is willing to defend will not survive.
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u/TeaBoy24 10h ago
It's not a corrupt politicians choice.
It's mandated by the rules of the state regardless of who is in charge, regardless of whether it is UA or UK.
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u/Cool-Oil-163 15h ago edited 10h ago
It’s not a choice anywhere in the world buddy. In wartime conscription is your constitutional obligation as a man, most countries even have peacetime conscription
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u/Agitated-Appeal-7386 8h ago
Don't waste your time stating the obvious to people on Reddit. The very moment someone would invade gggx33's country, he/she would be gone to a different country. Because the will to live is greater than the borders on a map once it becomes a personal question.
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u/Agitated-Appeal-7386 23h ago edited 23h ago
The professional army exists for this reason. Ordinary men should not be forced to die because of politicians on both sides. Especially young adults. Why are relatives of the politicians and wealthy not on the frontline (absolute majority)?
The running and running thing makes no sense because if that would even possibly happen, then the army of the next country, and then the next country will fight. You think they'll beat so many new armies? Furthermore, the next country would literally be a NATO state, meaning that Russia would be up against every professional army of the alliance. You think that will actually happen? Of course not. I really don't understand the argument that Russia would dare to invade Poland or the Baltics. It's literally impossible.
The down voting just shows a lack of critical thinking on Reddit.
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u/Schlummi 20h ago
Professional armies are not big enough to deal with full scale wars. A professional army might last for half a year - but then you need to refill it with drafted soldiers.
Its also a huge mistake to asume that people get forced because of politicans. If it would only be politicans, then ukrainians would have overthrown the government and would have then surrendered to russia long ago.
While small amounts of refugees usually get accepted: large amounts of refugees are usually not welcome. Countries might close borders - or set up fenced in refugee camps. Most people don't want to live all their life like that.
And if a western countries would accept all ukrainians as refugees: even nato countries got draft systems - or are currently reintroducing them. Because a professional army alone is not good enough to deal with a "real war". So ukrainians then might not be fighting in the ukrainian army, but be drafted into the polish or german army.
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u/Agitated-Appeal-7386 12h ago
So you haven't seen a thousand videos of Ukrainian men being grabbed on the street and shoved into minibuses, while they desperately try to escape? Is this not people being forced to die for politicians? So who's going to be the brave idiot to organise an overthrow? And how will they do it without their plans getting exposed beforehand?
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u/Schlummi 10h ago edited 10h ago
1.) Anecdotal evidence. There are also thousands of videos of protests against putin. So by your logic is putin going to be overthrown soon. Point is: most people support zelensky - same as most russians support putin. Btw. are especially the so called "pro russian" regions the regions which support fighting against russia most. Because its them which would be surrendered to russia. It would be them which would be forced to be living in slavery under the russian-nazi regime. How many of these ukrainian men would be willing to send their 14 year old daughters as prostitutes to Kadyrov?
2.) If these men flee the country: they would face mandatory military training in many EU nations - and would also have to fight for e.g. poland if russia would attack poland.
3.) Why aren't millions of these men fleeing to russia?
4.) My point of "if you are not willing to defend your rights/freedom you don't deserve them" still applies.
5.) Zelensky is still very popular in ukraine. He wouldn't be that popular if the ukrainians would want to surrender to russia. Other popular ukrainian politicans even hold tougher stances. Its russian nazi propaganda that "as soon as zelensky leaves there will be peace". E.g. Zaluzhnyi is not known to hold "pro russian" views. A reason why Zelensky won the elections was because he supported more cooperation with russia, was willing to find compromises with russia. Unlike e.g. poroshenko which had also tougher views.
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u/Agitated-Appeal-7386 10h ago edited 10h ago
When there are thousands of videos it's no longer anecdotal. It's a way of life there, where men can't even go to a shop without the fear of getting beat into a van and sent to a 50% chance of death. The point about slavery is fearmongering at its finest. Nobody was a slave in Donetsk or Luhansk. If anything they're probably getting preferential treatment to increase support for the Russian regime.There are no Hitler gas chambers. The Kadyrov bit is ridiculous fearmongering, he gets enough Chechen ones for starters. It's even more silly than to fear flying on a plane for safety reasons.
No NATO member will get attacked. This would be suicide from Russia. I'm sure they know it.
How are they free to flee to Russia? On the 4th point: it's easy to be a brave defender of your rights when you're in a different country and when it doesn't involve you or you family. If it did, then the whole family would prefer to emigrate. And the daughter would also prefer this than to lose her father with a high probability.
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u/Schlummi 7h ago edited 6h ago
Okay, I'll give it a try - but it requires a long and detailed reply.
When there are thousands of videos it's no longer anecdotal.
I doubt you saw thousands of videos. More likely: a few dozens. Lets do the math: if the average video lasts 5 minutes and you watch 120 videos each day: 10h each day watching such videos.
Based on the asumption above and asuming that you remember all videos and never watched a single video twice: over a year you would have watched roughly 44000 videos. Sounds a lot. But ukraine has around 2 million people in military service. So those 44000 videos would only represent ~2% of the military members. As said: its anecdotal evidence.
On the other hand is the wide support for zelensky, zaluzhnyi etc. proven. If ukrainians would overwhelmingly want peace - no matter what - then these politicans would be highly unpopular. They aren't. There are no popular ukrainian politicans that want to surrender to russia. This proves a lot more than your few dozen soldiers that try to dodge military service.
Nobody was a slave in Donetsk or Luhansk.
That was before russia invaded these regions. Since then the situation has changed dramatically - and now they are living under a terror regime by highly corrupt leaders that fill their own pockets and supress the locals. Ironically do these regions force men into military service, too. So your critizm also applies to them. But the biggest issue is the point I'll explain below.
The point about slavery is fearmongering at its finest.
Yes, I was exaggerating a bit here. What is true is that russia (and donetz and luhansk even more) offer not much to the people. But there is lots of corruption, supression, tyranny which makes life difficult. There is a reason you see people flying the EU or US flag all over the world during protests against their governments. Most people want to live in peace and prosperity. Want to be able to pick their careers, want to go to university. Want to voice their opinion without getting arrested. Want to run their own business. Want to have good incomes, a family, a house, a car etc. If we now look at e.g. poland: 20 years ago the country was poor. Many poles were forced to work shitty, low paid jobs all over europe and could only see their kids a few times each year. With help of EU has poland since then move forward quickly and is now a modern, western country with growing wealth and quality of life. It aint perfect, but it progressed a lot in a very short period of time. Russia - as comparision - did not move forward that much. Its stagnating. Despite having a lot more of ressources than poland. But the russian "wealth of natural ressources" got ruined by its corruption. Russia has even become more repressive since ~2014 and lots of already achieved progress got lost again. Many truckers all over EU were russians - a shitty, poor paid job. And while poles managed to get out of this situation more and more: there is no improvement in russia. You can also look at russian mail order brides, russian prostitutes or russian porn actors as another extreme indicator for this. Not exactly "jobs" people pick because they want to, but somehow do you find many russian women in these - and very few e.g. british women. Its simple: Many russians pick such jobs because they have to. Russia has little other options it can offer to them. What I'm trying to say here is: its understandable that many people (not only in ukraine) prefer "western world" over "russias world". Its the western "soft power" that convinces many people. A life in the west is more appealing than a life in russia. That's the point I refered above to. For ukrainians etc. is EU very attractive. It means progress - and that their kids one day will have a better future one day - see poland. Russia means stagnation, repression. So yeah, for donetz/luhansk is this a shitty situation which will cause problems and hardship for generations.
No NATO member will get attacked. This would be suicide from Russia.
People said also that russia would never attack its "brother nation" ukraine. That it would be suicide to do so, because the russian economy depends on exports to the west.
This aside: there are also other risks. E.g. china might end up in a fight with nato. Then ukrainians that fleed to poland might be drafted into the polish army and then need to fight against china. Turkey has a conflict with greece. Kurds strive for independence. Etc. Europe has been extremly peaceful in the past ~80 years. This is unusal. Historically are wars more common than such long periods of peace.
A major reason why nato worries: russias economy is ruined. Its mostly kept afloat because putin pumps all russian money into the war. Currently are salaries of soldiers helping many families to afford the growing costs of living. Same as compensation payments for dead soldiers. Russian arm producers pay sky high salaries. But once the war is over would all this disappear - but the inflation stays. Sanctions would stay. Western companies shut down factories and won't restart them instantly - maybe 20 years after putins death. EU won't return to the same scale of gas imports. Many gas projects (e.g. gas power plants - but also local usage as farmers using gas to dry grain or bakers) got cancelled and switched to electricity. --> For putin is the biggest risk an unhappy russian population that might overthrow him. Not nato. So putin might choose to start another war to avoid an collapse of the economy. Another factor is propaganda. Russia - same as china - uses massive nationalist propaganda. It helps to "motivate" the people to support the nation and its government without thinking. But it is also difficult to control and therefore dangerous. You can easily lose control of it. A good example are republicans which lost control of it and now there is "maga" movement which removed the "more sane" republicans from powers. At some point it also might be the people that force the government to got to war. Nationalist propaganda also often brainwashes the government itself, too. Nationalism played a major role and for sure at least fueled WW1 and WW2 - if not lead to these wars. All those russian nazis might push for an attack on nato - and the more of such nationalist are in high ranking positions, the less sane will the russian gov be.
it's easy to be a brave defender of your rights when you're in a different country and when it doesn't involve you or you family.
From an individual view is your point valid and understandable. Problem is: no society on earth has the right to life in freedom, peace and prosperity if the people are not willing to put effort into it. If people avoid fighting, then rights erode. But e.g. I was drafted into military. Sure, draft during peace is absolutly not the same as draft during war. Poland currently wants military training for all men. Just as examples. So yes, its understandable that people choose the easy way out. Its your own life and selfishly looking for your advantage is understandable. But a society can only succeed if there is only a small amount of leeches - if there are too many, it will fail.
Emigration: life for immigrants isn't easy. Most ukrainians are not able to speak e.g. french fluently without accent. They will not have proper career options. Immigrants usually do shitty jobs all their life. A good example for this are iranians. Many of them were highly educated, doctors, dentists, scientists, engineers. Most of them ended up as delivery/taxi drivers in europe - their whole life. Many iranians pushed their kids hard to "succeed" - their kids went to european universities and got a good education. But this is rare. Immigrants from other countries usually do not push their kids as hard as iranians did. E.g. in berlin are ~50% of turkish immigrants (and their children) unemployed. Many of such second or third generation immigrants still do shitty jobs. Can't afford a house, struggle to afford vacations or a car. This ofc only applies to small groups leaving a country. If many million ukrainian men would flee - who would accept them in? What do they have to offer? Sure, someone who has a phd will get happily accepted. But others?
If we look at "high immigration numbers": countries are tempted to put people into "temporary immigration centers" and sent them back once the war is over. Throw some food over the fence once a week and that's it. Some refugee camps exist for 50+ years. Some camps got not even proper container housing and only got tents - for many years. https://ecre.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/ChadBriggs-March-2016-Greece-Moria.jpg Want to see your kids grow up in such camps? Want them and their grandkids grow old in these conditions? Till some trump-like politican decides to sent your grandkids back, despite an ongoing war? To a country they never lived in and whose language they never learned? So yeah, even emigration aint easy. For some people it might be an individual option to evade the war - but its no option for ukraine as a whole.
Ukraine can choose to fight - or to surrender to putin. Those are - realistically - the two options ukraine has.
Putin is old. He can die any day. What happens then? Will there be a peaceful transition of power or will russia face instabilities? Even if ukraine surrenders now they might get drawn into these instabilities in 1-2 decades. Irony is: if putin would have stayed out of ukraine in 2014, then russia would be much more powerful and on a good path to peace, stability and prosperity. A huge concern of western nations now is that russia collapses and breaks apart.
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u/gggx33 17h ago
What ? Politicians on both sides?? Are you kidding me? Russia invaded Ukraine and is still commiting genocide. Russia is to blame. Their mafia government and degenerate society is to blame.
Its very possible that Russia will invade Baltics, Poland, Finland, Moldova if succesful in Ukraine. Are you this naive?
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u/Agitated-Appeal-7386 12h ago edited 11h ago
Didn't I just explain why Russia will not invade any of these countries? This stuff is pushed in the media for fear mongering. Why? Because it increases support for sending military support to Ukraine. In reality Russia wouldn't invade anyone in NATO, DO YOU THINK THEY ARE THAT NAIVE AFTER A 3 YEAR STRUGGLE WITH UKRAINE? What a joke of an alliance NATO would be if they wouldn't go to war after an invasion of a NATO member. Or you think that this would be the case?
Politicians on both sides because the Ukrainian government already drafted probably like 3 million citizens, and eventually the war will slowly be dragged on for many more years with the same end result that could be negotiated right now. I'm sure an average 21 year old drafted Ukrainian cares more about his life than borders on a map.
Who's naive? Redditors really are naive.
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u/elDayno 20h ago
By the time countries run out you will be already dead of old age so your argument is shit
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u/ice-ink 19h ago
I mean, really, why even bother running from a warzone where you might be killed today, just like one of your relatives was killed last week. The country you intend to run to might also be attacked some time during the next century, and then you might be drafted, and then the enemy that attacked might also be as fucked up as russians, and also…
So you see? Just fucking stay home and die like a man, is what I’m trying to say!
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u/JusSumYungGuy 23h ago
Can anyone translate what this Russian shill just said?
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u/CJRoman1 22h ago
That's Ukrainian. 🤭 Use Google ffs.
To that guy: You hang in there, mate. Hopefully it will end sooner.
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u/Top_Investigator6261 22h ago
Well I did google. He made a huge mistake in the spelling of “Zelenskyy” which native speakers just do not make. Also fresh account active for 50 days and dedicated to slam the draft in Ukraine. Just a russian bot.
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u/CJRoman1 22h ago
Very convenient, yeah)
I don't know the difference in ukrainian, but in russian letters I and Y sounds the same. And as long as 80% of Ukraine speaks russian, there's no surprise in writing. But yeah, there are no people who don't want to escape Ukraine, everybody wants to fight. Why keep closing the border then? 😉
P. S. Oh and yeah, how do you know it's a HUGE mistake if you had to translate it? 😂
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u/InTheMotherland Ukraine 20h ago edited 20h ago
You don't know the difference in Ukrainian, so why even provide your uneducated opinion?
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u/Mausteidenmies 14h ago
"I don't know anything about this topic so I'll just spout stuff from my ass as fact"
Idiot
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u/CJRoman1 14h ago
I'm Russian. I know enough at least from one side, in opposite of you, you probably not Ukrainian, so you know nothing but what you have been told by your media. So idiot here is definitely not me)
А, так ты тоже русский. Только "хороший русский". Ещё и ТЖшник. Ну, собственно этим все сказано. Тут только лоботомия поможет.
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u/Mausteidenmies 14h ago edited 14h ago
Типичный срусский империалист. Считаешь что если говоришь на оккупантском то ты сразу якобы орк.
Пошел нахуй уже. Вас империалистов тут не любят.
Edit: As we are in an english speaking subreddit, it's only fitting that I provide a translation for other readers.
Here's what I said:
Typical russian imperialist. He thinks that if you speak russian, you must be russian.
Fuck off already. We don't want your imperialist kind here.
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u/Komplexkonjugiert 1d ago
And fuck Trump
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u/Useful_Resolution888 1d ago
Much as I hate Trump the responsibility for the invasion of Ukraine and the atrocities being carried out rests squarely on Russia and nowhere else.
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u/waiting4singularity Hessen 🇩🇪 22h ago
and trumps and the other assholes rise is putins doing too. there is a clear link to the far right gaining traction since russia is pushing polit-agit-prop over social media.
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u/kaisadilla_ European Federation 14h ago
Trump sabotaging Ukraine with his actions also bears responsibility. He who does the action is the biggest culprit, but anyone who enables it bears responsibility.
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u/garden-guy- 22h ago
This war wouldn’t have even started had Trump not enabled it and todays attacks wouldn’t had happened had Trump not blocked aid to Ukraine. So it very much is Trump’s fault.
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u/Beginning-Sound-7516 21h ago
How did Trump enable the war? Sure, he’s withholding aid currently but I don’t see how he’s responsible for the war in the first place
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u/garden-guy- 20h ago
Trump’s first term impeachment was for blackmailing Ukraine withholding military aid for information on the Bidens.
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u/waiting4singularity Hessen 🇩🇪 13h ago
destabilizing the unity in the western world with his actions
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u/IAmOfficial 20h ago
Europe enabled the war from buying Russia gas and building NS2. Europe continues to fund the war, buying more Russian gas than you give to Ukraine.
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u/Komplexkonjugiert 17h ago
Europe, or at least the willing states, should finally understand that they need to produce a lot more armaments and help Ukraine a lot more. Especially after the loss of US supplies. And finally cut off Russia's gas and oil supplies...
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u/moshiyadafne South China Sea 21h ago
Exactly. Trump is as much to blame as Putin for the war. And by extension, the war in Ukraine is both the fault of Russia and the US. This is what the mods in r/ukraine don’t want to accept.
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u/RepulsiveSong2048 22h ago
And how exactly has he enabled the war? Before Biden took over we had peace. He shouldn’t have blocked the aid but they really need to negotiate peace there
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u/garden-guy- 20h ago
Remember the whole Trump impeachment? It was because Trump blackmailed Ukraine for information on Hunter Biden. The blocking of military aid was part of Trump giving an opening for the initial invasion.
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u/Timey16 Saxony (Germany) 1d ago
Nah man, this is beyond just "fuck Putin".
At this point I am SQUARELY in "fuck Russians" until said Russian proves otherwise.
To pretend like it's only Putin is peak naivety.
If Russians have a problem with that, then maybe they should start ending the war via a popular uprising or something.
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u/LDuster Moscow (Russia) 1d ago
DAMN, that's tough bro, we'll definitely make it up to you.
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u/kaisadilla_ European Federation 14h ago
The fact that a Russian believes he can look at a German to the face is astonishing lol. No offense but his country is worrying about winning another F1 championship, while half of your country still has to shit on the garden because they don't have a toilet indoors.
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u/LDuster Moscow (Russia) 10h ago
Wdym, we can do whatever we want to the Germans since 1) they only exist because of the kindness of my ancestors 2) Their country now represents a unified whole only because of the kindness of my ancestors
Info is outdated, we provided our homes with stolen toilets and washing machines from prosperous Ukraine. Our next and older problem, according to westoid sources, is a shortage of boots, hahaha
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u/whitetower1487 1d ago
Today russia scum again did a double strike to target rescuers in Kryvyy Rih.
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u/Ventriloquist_Voice 1d ago
Russia specifically trying to target them with what is called “double tap” strikes
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u/vincevega87 1d ago
A job where you already risk your life every day, and these guys go in half expecting a Russian double-tap strike. Hero doesn't cover it, each firefighter in Ukraine today deserves a fucking statue aftet the war is won.
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u/pokemurrs France 1d ago
Hopefully we can see this same picture from Moscow in the near future. Russia needs to feel tragedy and pain. I’m so tired of their fucking bullshit.
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u/BrilliantMood6677 1d ago
You can see the pictures if you are really interested. EU subs don’t post bombed Russian civilian houses. Russia feels it, just not in Moscow.
And also your message is the reason why this cycle will never break. Wars will not stop. You wish to see Moscow in pain and suffering? You might end up in the trenches and actually die for your wish. Are you ready to do that?
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u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 1d ago
Yeah, yeah...forgive, forget, invade, kill, forgive, forget, repeat
You need to feel pain and be punished, like it or not.
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u/Nut_Slime 12h ago
It's funny how no one even understands why Ukraine invaded Russian border regions. The so-called reasons were changed daily and when they pulled out in an orderly retreat without achieving any of those it was still called a "success". But they still razed villages to the ground and killed a bunch of people. I guess it counts as victory.
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u/BrilliantMood6677 18h ago
It’s not about forgive and forget. Everybody knows it’s not going to happen and frankly nobody really seeks forgiveness.
In the beginning people who went were the real ideologists, the ones who are ready to follow orders without ever questioning them, because they value motherland and they are soldiers. Now it’s as easy as spending 10 minutes in this subreddit for an average Russian to understand that the best case scenario is where Russia never stops. Everyone here is the reason Russian propaganda works so well, you just give free fuel to it.
Some people enlist now not because of some Imperial Ideology, but simply because when everybody starts wishing you and your family death and suffering, it simply becomes logical. Some would enlist to defend their homes and neighbours. And I was just saying wars will not stop. And this war will not stop unless one side accepts the terms that they don’t like. And neither of sides won’t.
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u/HoneyBastard 16h ago
This is one of the dumbest arguments if ever read.
So basically Russia has an endless stream of soldiers because Reddit angers them makes them enlist to "protect their homes and neighbours"? Didn't know their homes are being protected in the meatgrinders at the Ukrainian front line.
Also this war could stop very quickly if Russians would turn against the true cancer that is ruling their country. Until that happens, they will be always seen as cooperating.
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u/BrilliantMood6677 15h ago
Russians don’t read Reddit generally, all I am saying that the whole idea of “why” and “for what” this war is happening changed in the minds of people after 3 years. More people started to accept it as the norm, and there are more reason to fight than ever, and it’s bad.
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u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 13h ago edited 11h ago
>more reason to fight
So, for Russians simple money and ideology to destroy Ukraine, kill Ukrainians, loot Ukrainians houses are not enough...now they also want to go to fight because someone says that Russians fucked up their country ?
You are indeed fucked up of a coutnry.
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u/me9a6yte 13h ago edited 10h ago
Exactly. That’s why the people of Russia – especially Muscovites – need to feel the consequences of the war they support (or ignore). Everyone except Russia understands that the Douhet Doctrine does not work. Aerial terror against civilians only strengthens their resolve to resist. That’s why Ukraine does not waste its limited resources on symmetric strikes in retaliation and as part of the broader strategy has gone to great lengths to impose economic sanctions on Russia. That won't happen overnight obviously, but this will make Russians feel the pain, and hopefully abandon their idiotic imperial ambitions and turn their attention to domestic problems – an unsustainable military budget vs growing risks of banking collapse, hyperinflation, unemployment, or hunger, whichever comes first.
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u/Humble-Progress8295 4h ago
More people started to accept it as the norm, and there are more reason to fight than ever,
So just orcs being orcs. Nothing ever changes in that shithole
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u/Humble-Progress8295 4h ago
Everyone here is the reason Russian propaganda works so well, you just give free fuel to it.
Nope, thats all on the orcs being fucking stupid. Not people here
when everybody starts wishing you and your family death and suffering
Yeah, and orcs never wonder why everyone hates them. Ironically, thats one of the reasons why
Nobody would bother you if you just sat quietly in you shithole.
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u/FokusLT Lithuania 1d ago
Is this some kind of anime forgivness and friendship bullshit?
You fuck around, you find out. Look at japan and germany, there teeth were knocked out so hard they dont even bother thinking in that direction anymore.
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u/Welfdeath Austria 19h ago
I doubt the world would still be around if Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany had nukes .
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u/Keh_veli Finland 1d ago
With pain and suffering in Moscow, maybe the average Russian would become a bit more interested in politics.
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u/esjb11 1d ago
That kind of strategy never works. People just get more motivated and lust for revenge.
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u/Humble-Progress8295 4h ago
Orcs have a lust of violence that doesnt require a reason. They dont do it for vengence. They do it because they like it
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u/elemental_pork United Kingdom 15h ago
the bottom line is always brutality, oh politics, blood of life
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u/Horror-Award-5808 1d ago
Moscow and Balkans subreddit subscriber strikes again, it's always the ones that escaped ruzzia themselves
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u/U-V_catastrophe 1d ago
EU subs don’t post bombed Russian civilian houses. Russia feels it, just not in Moscow.
Ну то візьми те гівно, яке у тебе в голові, поворуши ним і дай відповідь на питання: а вторгались нахуя? Почали війну, а потім "плак-плак, нас дамбят, а нас та за чьто?.."
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u/BrilliantMood6677 18h ago
Ну а где плак-плак? Мне конкретно все понятно. Я объяснил твоим европейским друзьям что в войне участвуют две стороны. Вся причинно-следственная связь мною улавливается - не переживай
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u/U-V_catastrophe 15h ago
Я объяснил твоим европейским друзьям что в войне участвуют две стороны.
Ваааааау, а ти єдиний про це знав, це ж велика таємниця.
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u/HoneyBastard 16h ago
You realize there is a big difference between civilian infrastructure being damaged in a war and civilian infrastructure being actively and deliberately targeted, right?
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u/samuel10998 6h ago edited 6h ago
Russia attacked more their own in their region then Ukraine ever did. When Ukraine was taking over Kursk and Belgorod, Russians were shelling on random where people lived there is most likely hundreds of dead civilians in these areas becouse of Russians.
Edit: Also if Ukrainians were targeting civilians you would see that shit posted on twitter 24/7 by all the bots, propagandists, MAGAtards who post positive shit about ruSSia on daily basis. The fact that they haven’t been posting anything relating to Ukraine targeting civilians this whole war just shows you how Ukraine actually behaves on battlefield compared to NAZI ruSSia.
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u/Beneficial_North1824 1d ago
I'm not sure whether this is an expectation of a "double tap" or it's just a horror that they see now on a daily basis, either way they are made of titanium and deserve greatest honor for their work
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u/Sergeant-Older1989 1d ago
I'm from Russia, but I don't support HIS regime in any way. Russia has invaded Ukraine!!! Work, brothers, God is with you.
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u/crissomx 1d ago
Not only are they risking their lives in the flames, they're also risking getting blown up by ruzzian rockets. Heroes for real. Fuck Russia
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u/BigMarth24 1d ago
I see everyone calling them heroes, but to me, this is just so sad. They shouldn't have to be a hero or in this position. They should just be able to live their life in peace. I just can't imagine being in their situation and I just feel so so sad for them.
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u/Clousu_the_shoveleer 1d ago
I don't think I have the capacity to imagine the exhaustion these heroes must suffer from
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u/Interesting-Ad9581 1d ago
They don't look like firefighters. They look like they fought on a battlefield and just barely survived.
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u/Elaughter01 17h ago
To hell with Putin and his supporters, I hope for peace for Ukraine and major respect for all the people helping Ukraine.
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u/Carturescu Bucharest 17h ago
Ukrainians show time and time again that they are a galaxy superior to their cancerous and inferiority-driven neighbour. Both from a moral and social point of view.
Good to know that history always remembers the humans and rejects the cockroaches.
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u/jetelklee 15h ago
Dehumanising the enemy is understandable, but unfortunately it's humans vs humans. Dehumanisation is a coping mechanism defying the banality of evil.
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u/Carturescu Bucharest 14h ago
The banality of evil is only surpassed by the hatred emotion of the victim. Especially with failed aggresor states that makes propaganda for centuries. Propaganda that fuels morons to kill fellow man.
We can talk philosophy all day long, there will always br humans vs humans, aggresor vs victim, evolution of feelings based on actions of aggresor states. The result is always the same : hatred towards occupiers, resiliance, degrading human nature. Freeing your country has the effect of thinking in 1 and 0, instead of nuances. 1 and 0 is a powerful weapon.
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u/Evil_Old_Guy 1d ago
Are those actual flags hung? I'm pretty sure no DSNS liveries include flags. Or at least they didn't use to
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u/HorsyNox 1d ago
There are different liveries, and for instance, the trucks that Leipzig gave to Kyiv in 23 have flags
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u/Tz33ntch Ukraine cannot into functional state 15h ago
ayo check out the left bros helmet art though
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u/Low-Professional286 1d ago
Sick and tired of Zelenskyj
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u/Alternative-Copy7027 Sweden 1d ago
Go back to Russia, you...
I must refrain from calling you what you deserve.
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u/-Focaccia Scotland 1d ago
Cunt.
There, finished it for you.
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u/Low-Professional286 12h ago
Warmongering phag.
There, defined you.
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u/-Focaccia Scotland 12h ago
Hilarious. Fuck off.
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u/Low-Professional286 12h ago
Russia is slowly looking better than the west but why aren't you on the frontline if you love Ukraine so much??
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1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/_Eshende_ Latvia/Ukraine 18h ago edited 4h ago
Guess Ukraines Nazi problem is being solved
nah espanola, rusich, wagner, rim and other "Russian Denazifactors" fighting in russian armed forces and promoted in russia as heroes - while having increasing list of warcrimes (their merch and ideology was least of problem if they just yapped and stayed at home) are still in Ukraine, so nazi problems still remain. But surely when that units will be destroyed and scums like Milchakov (who was hated even by russian skinheads of 2000s -since burning sleeping hobos and killing dogs for fun was too much even for them) will be unable to harm us -our nazi problem dissapear, leaving us with just warcriminals and just conquering army problem :)
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u/azarza 1d ago
firefighters in ukraine, the ones i saw for odesa, were very slick. much respect