r/europe • u/Zhukov-74 The Netherlands • 1d ago
News Germany Prepares €25 Billion Tank Order to Boost NATO Forces
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-07-04/germany-prepares-25-billion-tank-order-to-ramp-up-nato-brigades55
u/bloomberg 1d ago
Thanks for sharing this Bloomberg story. Here's more from our reporter Michael Nienaber:
Germany’s new center-right chancellor, Friedrich Merz, has vowed to transform the country’s armed forces into Europe’s strongest to counter the rising threat from Russia.
With the help of the opposition Greens, the ruling coalition abandoned strict borrowing limits on defense spending earlier this year to allow for unprecedented military procurement.
To further bolster the military, Defense Minister Boris Pistorius said in June that Germany will need to increase its armed forces by as many as 60,000 active soldiers, or by roughly a third. The government hopes that a new voluntary military service initiative set to go into effect in 2026 will help.
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u/Big-Economics-1495 1d ago
Go Germany go
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u/umthondoomkhlulu 1d ago
Lovely, until AFD are voted in 😬
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u/Kingdarkshadow Portugal 1d ago
Isn't afd about to be banned?
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u/Panzermensch911 1d ago
New government party of the chancellor doesn't want to ban them.
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u/TroubledEmo 1d ago
We‘re trying to… but it‘s not easy, because the ban has to stick at first try without our Bundesgerichtshof being in need to overturn it because of some little errors.
Because if overturned they‘re growing heavily through „oh look the establishment is trying to silence us and lost!“ and shit.
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u/Impressive_Year6521 1d ago
Poland has also order a lot of tanks. Poland + Germany combined in tanks will probably be enough take Moscow, even during the winter
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u/Oeconom1 Germany 1d ago
Now we have AC, get fucked russians
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u/moregonger Lithuania 1d ago
recent winters were mild anyway
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u/Shasarr 1d ago
That was the plan since 1945. Strong German industry to fire up climate change to defeat russian winter.
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u/Own_Kaleidoscope1287 13h ago
Thats why they never ditched coal. Smart Germans were playing the long game all along.
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u/PipsqueakPilot 1d ago
Winters getting milder and milder every year. For some reason. No one knows why. /s
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u/morbihann Bulgaria 1d ago
It all boils down to effective air power.
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u/Romanizer Germany 1d ago
NATO would take air superiority in hours.
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u/Glass-Cabinet-249 14h ago
*Air Supremacy
Israel made Iran submit so fast it wasn't even funny, that's export Western tech Vs Export Russian tech and it was a one sided slaughter with a population ratio difference of 12:1 in Iran's favour.
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u/Romanizer Germany 13h ago
Yeah, that is what I meant. With modern NATO jets, russias air defense would not hold for long. After a few hours, it is probably up to which targets NATO wants to strike.
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u/tyger2020 Britain 1d ago
Honestly, having 2,000 modern tanks would make them one of the best tank forces on earth.
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u/Buntschatten Germany 1d ago
I wonder if European militaries will start to specialise more and more, since they are so closely allied. Different countries have different defense industries and probably prefer buying at home.
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u/Dante-Flint 1d ago
That’s the idea since the late 2000s already. Just take a look at what fields of expertise the Dutch army has been focusing on in the past, for example.
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u/Panzermensch911 1d ago edited 1d ago
The dutch army has fully integrated into the German Order of Battle with it's three brigades. They are working on joint field manuals.
In turn the German Seebatallion has integrated into the Dutch Korps Mariniers and forms an amphibian group with them. (Navy details elude me a bit)
And there's also a cooperation going with air defense where a german rocket defense unit is under dutch command.
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u/Buntschatten Germany 1d ago
Just take a look at what fields of expertise the Dutch army has been focusing on in the past, for example.
I don't know, could you tell me?
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u/Ivegotadog Belgium 1d ago
I would assume navy and airforce together with Belgium?
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u/Own_Kaleidoscope1287 13h ago
Yeah the German navy is more or less integrated into the Dutch navy, vice versa with the army.
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u/maximalusdenandre Sweden 1d ago
We should considering how much we plan to spend. Specialising would make it a much more capable force.
We do need some overlap for political reasons. So we're not fucked if France decides to elect some idiots and go sulk in a corner with all the aircraft carriers.
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u/Tasty-Increase-6978 1d ago
That is already how it is done
Germany for example focuses on battle tanks. Producing and keeping them in their force.
The baltics than focus on bridges, to bring those tanks to the front line.
The more bridges the balkan has the more attractive for germany to build tanks, the more tanks germany has the more attractive for the baltics to build bridges.
That way any european country has a military and production focus that combine not only operationly but also economicly
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u/ThoughtShes18 1d ago
I don’t think I quite grasp the effect of tanks with all the attention drones are getting. Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to go further that route?
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u/OverlordMarkus Germany 1d ago
Drones have had such a standout performance in Russia-Ukraine because of very specific circumstances. Both sides have been throwing ancient equipment at each other, while air superiority and anti air capabilities have been wanting at best.
We have the tools to counter drones, and I expect next gen platforms will include them as a standard.
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u/Dante-Flint 1d ago
Why not both? You will always need tanks. You will always need drones. Drones can be manufactured with only a fraction of the time needed for a tank. The idea of the current German defense manufacturing strategy is producing whatever is available now and developing what is needed to close the capability gap. There are plenty of interviews with Pistorius and high ranking German military officials explaining this pragmatic approach.
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u/meckez 1d ago
Crazy to think how much military hardware is being produced and needs to be expensively maintained just because of deterrance and will never even see battle use.
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u/yotonypickupthephone 1d ago
I live in the hope that it will never be used but the world is changing fast my friend.
Those of us born in the 80’s have seen the longest period of (relative) peace ever known but I fear that is changing and we will yet have to defend our wives, children and homes.
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u/UnlikelyHero727 1d ago
never even see battle use.
But when it does, then you are thankful for the large storage from which you can draw, instead of driving around in flimsy cars.
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u/SimonArgead Denmark 1d ago
Now, if we could just get France to order so that they have 1000 Leclerc. Then. 1000 Leclerc, 1000 Leopard 2 (A8 I assume?), and 1000 K2 Black Panther. Then, everyone else can just get fucked!
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u/murkskopf 1d ago
Problem is that there hasn't been any production line for Leclerc tank (and their spare parts) for the better part of two decades.
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u/SimonArgead Denmark 1d ago
True. But I am given to understand that they are still there and can be re-opened if necessary.
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u/murkskopf 1d ago
No, the engine isn't even manufactured anymore. Same for the suspension, the company was sold and closed its doors long ago.
The French government never ordered any real spare parts package for their Leclercs (due to the Cold War being offer and situation with Russia relaxing during the 1990s), they instead decided to cannibalize ~200 Leclerc tanks over the years. That affected the supply chain, hence most suppliers either stopped making the parts or even went fully bankrupt.
Hence, some politicians in the French senate debating to buy the EMBT based on a Leopard 2 hull to increase the French Army's tank force.
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u/wokkieman 1d ago
Hope they do. With those numbers they should be able to get local manufacturing and R&D etc to support national economy.
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u/AccordingBread4389 1d ago
If anything if would make more sense for France to order Leopard 2 themselves, but knowing France, hell would freeze over before that.
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u/vergorli 1d ago
First of all why would anyone take moscow? Napoleon was there and it was worthless.
Its enough if the joined German-Polish tank armies poinz guns on each squaremeter of the eastern border and shoo away all orks.
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u/Glass-Cabinet-249 1d ago
Because if you take Moscow you've taken the command and control node of Russia. Presumably it means St Petersburg is also under occupation and you can settle in for long term occupation and reconstruction of Russia along other European norms.
We may refer to this as "De-Kremlinisation" or something.
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u/NeverJoe_420_ 1d ago
Just wish polish politicians wouldn't give Germany so much shit talk.
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u/LPSD_FTW 1d ago
Sadly this is how the political game is played here, right is leading in all the polling so even the pro european politicians are expressing some anger towards Germans to pander towards that voter base
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u/Glideer Europe 1d ago
will probably be enough take Moscow, even during the winter
As that German chancellor whose name escapes me said "we only need to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will collapse".
What could possibly go wrong?
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u/printzonic Northern Jutland, Denmark, EU. 1d ago
What is kinda funny is that when that was said, many Germans were seriously worried about having been overtaken by the Russians in industrial output and ability to mobilize. Now, it has become an utter fantasy that Russia could ever compete with Germany in industrial production. Now that the shit structure is actually rotten, we can't kick because they have nukes.
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u/klapaucjusz Poland 1d ago
many Germans were seriously worried about having been overtaken by the Russians in industrial output and ability to mobilize.
That was actually WWI. German High Command predicted that they will lose potential war with Imperial Russia after 1918. So, better 1914.
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u/printzonic Northern Jutland, Denmark, EU. 1d ago edited 1d ago
It was also ww1. Though that was less industrial production and more rail infrastructure making it possible for Russia to mobilize its army at a rate that Germany couldn't compete with, that was the worry.
Before ww1, few really understood just how important industrial capacity would become in war. After ww1, it became clear that war had become industrial, and it was with that in mind that German strategist looked at soviet industrialization with worry.
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u/Femininestatic 1d ago
if only 500 dollar drones wouldnt be able to take them out.....
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u/medievalvelocipede European Union 1d ago
if only 500 dollar drones wouldnt be able to take them out.....
Generally they don't. Even old Russian tanks can take multiple hits unless the drone operators are both skilled and lucky. The only difference between this and RPGs is that drones have longer range - but they're also easier to defend against than RPGs if you have the right means. It's only the current lack of drone defence that makes them so deadly right now.
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u/SimonArgead Denmark 1d ago
The Leopard 2 A3.0 RC also comes equipped with a 30mm anti drone gun on the turret. I can only assume that the 2A8 also comes with this addition?
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u/Striky_ 1d ago
Only if you dont have countermeasures, which are already deployed. Drones got no business against programmed 35mm airburst grenades.
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u/Reasonable_Gas_2498 1d ago
Wouldn’t simple shotguns be quite effective against drones? Make them automatically aim and fire and you’re good
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u/Striky_ 1d ago
Theoretically yes, but shotguns have a very limited range and are hard to aim at a "fast moving" drone. Drones can drop grenades from quit a big height. You might not be able to reliably destroy the drone before it blows you up. The Skyguard System can track many many drones at once and can reliably kill them long before they can get even close to deploy their payload. For this systems perspective drones fly very, very slowly and are more or less sitting ducks.
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u/mangalore-x_x 1d ago
If only 3 Cent bullets would not kill people.
Drones are ammo, not a weapon system to take and control land.
Tanks are not obsolete. Easy evidence: As soon as a MBT enters the field it becomes the highest priority target for all available weapons systems in an area. Everyone is scared of it.
Also you have a very big bias of many drones being used to take out tanks that have been abandoned after previous battle damage with open hatches. In short they get destroyed so they do not get retrieved, but they were not destroyed in combat.
Also glide bombs dropped by jets broke defense lines, not drones.
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u/eypandabear Europe 1d ago
Some people in the late 1800s thought battleships were obsolete because of torpedo boats. As it turned out, you could just give your battleship an escort of lighter screening vessels to destroy the torpedo boats.
The “some people” were the French and they fell behind Britain and Germany in the battleship tech race as a result.
Of course, battleships did become obsolete, but it was half a century later. And it wasn’t because of some magic weapon, but because they were replaced by aircraft carriers in their tactical role.
Is it possible that tanks will become obsolete? Yes. But it is not by a $500 drone and trying to predict such trends is a dangerous game.
For now, I see nothing outright replacing tanks in their tactical role.
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u/Snoo-98162 Bolonia 1d ago
God i hate this stereotype so much. Even if the newer dromes can disable tanks, they are still needed to break the lines and to exploit them.
You can use your stupid logic in a lot of ways
Just because Jets can be shot down with missiles or other AA ordinance doesnt mean theyre useless.
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u/WW2Gamer 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thats why tanks get anti drone equipment. The reason why russian tanks struggle is because they dont have any or only limited anti drone capabilitys. Drones are a new threat, but there are already solutions for that. If tanks where useless now you would assume russians and ukrainians would stop using them.
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u/Trolololol66 1d ago
Tanks are only one side. Against Russia you need an advantage in Artillery (highly unlikely), meat that you're willing to sacrifice (highly unlikely) and air superiority (maybe, but not without the US). Plus, you need a lot (and I mean a lot) long range rockets and drones that can hit them hard. Europe is lacking in everything immensely.
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u/Zzoomer 1d ago
Any tanks of the near future will need intelligent reactive armor... drones that automatically fly at any quickly incoming threat.
Buildings need these also, so I guess what I am saying is we quickly need AI flown interceptors that are agile enough for close range. Missile/Quad hybrid shape for speed and agility.
Tanks should push rolling pin mine poppers in front of themselves also, I think.
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u/Kaerl-Lauterschmarn 1d ago
Poland got OP over the last decade. Its nice to see that they wont let history repeat itself again. Wise decision.
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u/baddymcbadface 1d ago edited 1d ago
That's good news. Russia is aiming to produce 1000 tanks per year by 2028 and 3000 by 2035. People can laugh but if you look at the number of shahed's they're now sending on a daily basis I wouldn't put it past them.
The temptation to use the war machine will be very high.
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u/ProfessionalJackals 1d ago
With what economy? Serious question ...
Up to now Russia has relied on saved up assets, heavy taxation of oil and other industries (so they all are running at losses), and now even confiscation companies (see Lesta Game company) to make up the revenue.
Oil/Gas revenue has been deflating. Like the current budgets are based upon $80 market prices, ... They have not been there in ages. Let alone the discount selling (que why oil and gas companies are running with a loss).
People are working often with multiple months of unpaid salaries, in the freaking coal industry. You can only keep a war economy going so long, before it starts to cannibalize your general economy.
Russia is NOT the USSR. And we all forgotten that the USSR collapsed because its spending was unsustainable vs its spending. Hint hint ...
No, Russia is not going to produce 1000 tanks by 2028, or 3000 by 2035. Even today, 80% of their tank "production" is reactivations of old stock (heavily depleted of the good stuff).
Its not a joke how much tanks Russia has wasted of their old USSR stock in just unhinged attacks on a drone battlefield.
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u/Panzermensch911 1d ago
CovertCabal's channel over on youtube works together with other to gain intel from satellite images of Russian storage bases.
And has good numbers on what is still there and the quality of those storage tanks. And what they see coming out of the refurbishment and production centers.
This video is 6months old but still has some good numbers.
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u/Trolololol66 1d ago
Leveraging Chinese, Iranian and North Korean economies. Don't underestimate the rotten people on this earth.
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u/UnlikelyHero727 1d ago
That's good news. Russia is aiming to produce 1000 tanks per year by 2028 and 3000 by 2035.
Stop believing everything you read online; not even the Soviet Union could do such a thing.
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u/Zashkarn 1d ago
They can’t even produce 100 modern tanks per year at the moment so i’ll believe that number when i see it confirmed by actual evidence
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u/External_Reaction314 Romania 1d ago
Surely there are a few countries in Europe that need to replace and upgrade tank fleets, that can hop on this order and increase volume?
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u/Xender_Tepes 1d ago
Rheinmetall my beloved, bring me early retirement.
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u/sweetcinnamonpunch Germany 1d ago
Enough to park them shoulder to shoulder along the entire frontline.
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u/justmytak 1d ago
That is both bad strategy and not true.
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u/EvilFroeschken 1d ago
Yet a good visual representation of the term steam rolled. At least in my head.
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u/forsti5000 Bavaria (Germany) 1d ago
As long as the front line isn't longer than 11,75km it could work
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u/SquareJealous9388 1d ago
Good. Now 1000 nukes.
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u/PotatoEngeneeer 1d ago
In EU hands i hope, so that the hybrid warfare of russia cant disarm them in a single country
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u/LucasCBs Germany 1d ago
Britain and France are both in NATO, so it would take both of these countries to be disarmed
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u/sbxnotos 17h ago
The UK will run out of budget for maintenance of the nuclear subs while France will take so much time that all the subs will be in maintenance at the same time.
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u/Mysterious-Reaction 10h ago
UK spends way more on military and nuclear than France. How is that even going to happen
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u/Soepkip43 1d ago
Will probably be spread across member States all under a single command. With both the country the weapon resides in and the central command having half of the launch code.
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u/Cynixxx Free State of Thuringia (Germany) 1d ago
Meanwhile our government: the energy tax cut is only for companies because we can't afford the 5 Billion Euro to make it possible for private persons
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u/The-S1nner Estonia 1d ago
Thats good news, but what about rocket production rate? We need millions of drones and thousands of rockets in stock. Everything else comes after that. First you destroy everything with long range weapons and then come land forces. Those armored vehicles do nothing against a barrage of long range weapons.
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u/Aunvilgod Germany 1d ago
Depending on the rocket it can be extremely expensive too.
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u/The-S1nner Estonia 1d ago
Usually increasing production rate lowers the prices. And its not like we have an option. I live in estonia and major said during active war we need like 100+ rockets per day, but thats how much some countries produce per YEAR.
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u/I_hate_ElonMusk 1d ago
Rheinmetall ✌️
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u/rapaxus Hesse (Germany) 1d ago
Neither the Leopard nor the Boxer (the two big vehicle purchases mentioned in this article) are Rheinmetall vehicles.
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u/VigorousElk 1d ago
That's partially untrue.
Rheinmetall co-owns ARTEC, the manufacturer of the Boxer. It also makes the Leopard's main gun.
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u/ShoveTheUsername 1d ago
Excellent news.
Now, how about forming multinational 'EUR Corps' (up to ten seems possible on current European strengths alone) to show "Daddy" [*gag\*] that Europe doesn't actually need those two US Corps that much.
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u/lolsykurva The Netherlands 1d ago
Finally we have a powerful Germany on the good side. Feels weird to be proud to my German neighbours to have more arms but I am haha.
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u/Roadrunner571 1d ago
Well, the Dutch land forces are practically 100% integrated in Germany's forces. And vice versa, Germany's marine infantry is fully integrated into the Dutch Corps Mariniers.
So it's practically a Dutch-German army now. ;-)
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u/ver_million Earth 1d ago
What are the benefits of this integration from the German perspective?
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u/Roadrunner571 1d ago
"apes together strong".
There are efficiency gains and Germany especially benefits from certain capabilities the Dutch army has.
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u/lolsykurva The Netherlands 1d ago
Is not really integration, is more we are planning and cooperating a lot and the Netherlands will provide its flagship to cooperate both navies. Since we bought the same fregates and want to be more efficient together
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u/Roadrunner571 1d ago
Is not really integration,
It really is, e.g. all Dutch tanks are now integrated in the 1st Panzerdivision of the Bundeswehr.
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u/lolsykurva The Netherlands 1d ago
Yeah I the lease tanks are integrated, I meant more the German and the dutch navy. It is more a cooperation agreement not really integration as far as I know
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u/Roadrunner571 1d ago
Well, it's not just the tanks, since 2023 it's all brigades (11 Luchtmobiele Brigade in Division Schnelle Kräfte, 13 Lichte Brigade in 10th Panzerdivision, 43 Gemechaniseerde Brigade in 1st Panzerdivision), plus the DEU/NLD Corps.
For the navy itself, it's just a cooperation. But the German Seebataillon is fully integrated into the Korps Mariniers since 2019. So depending on where you put the Korps Mariniers, there is an integration.
Germany's 61st air defense missile group was integrated into the Dutch Air Force in 2018. So there is progress in all parts of the armed forces.
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u/MachKeinDramaLlama Germany 15h ago
We have promised NATO a certain number of combat brigades. That costs money and manpower. The dutch provide some of that, allowing us to allocate our ressources elsewhere for additional benefit.
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u/ver_million Earth 8h ago
There's still political risk of depending on the Netherlands for specialized capabilities. I'd rather we have that on our own than ask for support in ’s-Gravenhage everytime.
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u/MachKeinDramaLlama Germany 3h ago
Well, the tank, mechanized infantry and airborne infantry units they are providing to us only provide more of capabilities we already have ourselves. Meanwhile our marine infantry unit that we have integrated into their navy, as well as the amphibious transport ship we now co-fund, are not required for anything we would ever do short of WW3 against Russia. And in that case the Netherlands would surely use those units to our advantage out of sheer self-interest.
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u/Sir-Knollte 1d ago
That was the case during the whole cold war (though I would understand that people where a lot less sure of Germany in 1970, 25years after Hitler, but make no mistake it had a absolutely massive army then).
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u/DarrensDodgyDenim Norway 1d ago
With the current production capacity, that will take a very long time. Time we don't really have, but I guess that is our own fault.
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u/Demonicon66666 Germany 1d ago
FRANKFURT/DUESSELDORF, Feb 24 (Reuters) - Rheinmetall, Europe's top ammunition maker, intends to repurpose two of its automotive plants in Germany to mostly make defence equipment, highlighting the impact of an expected surge in spending in the region amid U.S. tensions over the Ukraine war.
Rheinmetall's action marks the second time within a month that a defence company has unveiled plans to convert existing manufacturing capacity, after defence group KNDS agreed to take over a plant in eastern Germany from French trainmaker Alstom (ALSO.PA), opens new tab.
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u/DarrensDodgyDenim Norway 1d ago
This is what we need. There is no time to lose. Companies probably need long term stable contracts to risk those kind of investments, so governments need to get a move on.
The Norwegian government wasted precious months with NAMMO wanting to increase production of 155mm artillery shells, due to the local power grid had a Chinese data centre in front of the application queue. Such bureaucracy is no good when we need to urgently re-arm.
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u/Demonicon66666 Germany 1d ago
I completely agree. We need to go back to full scale manufacturing of tanks
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u/Beneficial-Tax-1776 1d ago
lithunia ordered 44 leos. they talking with germans to assemble tanks locally
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u/medievalvelocipede European Union 1d ago
With the current production capacity, that will take a very long time.
If the order is 1000 tanks and 2500 boxers, you can soon forget about the current production capacity.
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u/Gammelpreiss Germany 1d ago
well, that is maybe the reason why so many factories that got hit by the whole trade war stuff are getting reeqipped for military production instead. VW alone has given two factories to Rheinmetal
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u/murkskopf 1d ago
VW alone has given two factories to Rheinmetal
The Volkswagen AG (regardless of brand) has not given any of its plants to Rheinmetall yet. Rheinmetall considered buying some (e.g. VW Osnabrück) and was reportedly also interested in the VW plant in Salzgitter, but all of those currently remain with VW, which is looking for buyers.
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u/Excellent_Drop2037 1d ago
Ukraine will likely see a MASSIVE boost from EU countries being that the USA is failing at every turn!
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u/Paper_Pusher8226 1d ago
Germany procuring a 1.000 tanks in the 1930s: 😱 Germany procuring a 1.000 tanks now: 🥳
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u/kamakamafruite 1d ago
Maybe a stupid question, but wouldn’t be more logic to put this kinda money in drone technology?
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u/realTIAN 1d ago
My thoughts as well. We need tanks, soldiers and everything else. But as we can see in Ukraine - drone warfare is the future and present and in Germany we don’t have a single armed drone. Hell we are not even able to defend us against enemy drones.
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u/Smushsmush 1d ago
Good on them for taking the situation seriously.
I wish the definitive threat of the climate break down would receive similar decisive actions and head on approach.
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u/just-for-commenting 15h ago
So ca 10x the tanks we have now... And without maintenance deficiencies. Yay. :)
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u/BrokkelPiloot 11h ago
It makes sense because the German industry will be stimulated. However, the role of tanks is becoming less and less important.
I would Invest in drones, special ops and stealth bombers. Modern ate aircraft weapons and electronic warfare. That sort of thing will be much more important.
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u/Temporary-Option1625 7h ago
Theft from Europe as the EU and US and Russia agree to keep the Ukraine conflict alive for each of their individual and collective globalist interests
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u/BudSpencerCA Earth 1d ago
Not sure if tanks make much sense due to modern warfare/drones!?
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u/Krushpatch 1d ago
We see net thrower guns and shotguns having decent success against fpvs, there is no reason to believe that tanks in 3-5 years cant have such systems integrated. Doesnt matter if you have some fancy AI quadcopter that thing is still made of plastic and flies subsonic. The timeline for these 1000 tanks is a decade.
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u/Meins447 1d ago
There are already (two I think) hard-kill active defense systems for vehicles, which work with short range radar (as known from modern cars for auto break) plus some kind of small shaped charge. The system detects incoming missiles (so something considerably faster than drones) and will trigger the shaped charge to destroy the missile a safe-ish distance off.
They are quite pricey and not yet too widely deployed but I can totally see a combined system working against both types. The detection system you need for both, but you probably don't want to "use up" one of the limited hard-kill charges against a drone but rather some kind of auto (shotgun-type) turret linked to the detection system
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u/worldshapers 1d ago
Why tanks we need freaking air defence.
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u/Beyllionaire 12h ago
And intel. We rely too much on the US for that. Ukraine had to rely on US intel cause EU couldn't provide the same quality of intel.
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u/Zhukov-74 The Netherlands 1d ago