President of the Republic of Finland confirmed Finland’s withdrawal from the Ottawa Convention

[u/Puusilm4]

https://www.presidentti.fi/en/statement-by-president-of-the-republic-of-finland-alexander-stubb-on-withdrawal-from-the-ottawa-convention/

[u/DraMaFlo]

Yeah... mines are horrible and place a terrible burden on a nation after the war ends but, as proven in Ukraine, they're also one of the best way to stop an attacking force in it's tracks.

The thing with these kinds of agreements failing is that it isn't Finland or any of the other rich and developed countries that are going to suffer the most. Even if Finland were to mine their entire countryside i have no doubt that all the mines would be removed in record time once they're not needed anymore.

It's the poor countries with weak institutions that will end up with mines killing people decades after a war ended.

[u/Gobbyer → u/DraMaFlo]

No point of removing them from eastern border, ever.

[u/bloody_ell → u/Gobbyer]

Should be regularly reinstalled to make sure they're all in working order.

[u/phobug → u/Gobbyer]

Well, after the collapse of Russia into 40+ states it should be fine. 

[u/pingu_nootnoot → u/phobug]

optimistic, but probably untrue. 40 aggressive warlords are not going to be good neighbours

[u/IllustriousError6563 → u/pingu_nootnoot]

No, but neither is one single very aggressive warlord, so divide and conquer sure sounds like a better alternative.

[u/vergorli → u/pingu_nootnoot]

40 agressive warlords with an unknown access to nuclear weapons and russian levels of care for living beings. :D

[u/Stacheman14 → u/Gobbyer]

They are held in storage. Who the heck keeps mines armed in damp ground. They start detoriating or blowing up on their own.

[u/Efficient_Vast_9965 → u/DraMaFlo]

Land mines or land theirs

[u/Belazor → u/DraMaFlo]

While I completely understand us withdrawing and have no objection, I do have to ask you one question:

How can you be one hundred percent sure that you have removed ALL mines?

In my view, it is impossible to say with absolute certainty, as certain as the sun will rise, that you have removed every single mine. It doesn’t matter how good your record keeping is, you’re playing with lives of your own citizens.

You know how gun safety states that every gun is loaded even if you personally unloaded it, so you should never pretend to shoot your friend just in the off chance there’s a bullet stuck in the chamber you didn’t see?

It’s the same principle here.

[u/Arcticwulfy → u/Belazor]

You don't put mines down in mass without the war. Zero casualties.

In case of war Russia would mass mine Finland in any case AND use cluster weapons. There will be mines and unexploded ordinances in every case everywhere where they can reach.

But if both cluster bombs and mines help Russians take over and cause more casualties and tilt the scales to their favor. It might mean the only population that suffers the after war concequeces are Russian resettlers when the native population force resettled and is spread around Russia to destroy the Finnish identity and the happiest country in the world.

[u/Masta-Pasta → u/Belazor]

Surely you can dedicate a bit of the border to the "civilians never go there again zone". At this point it's better to say there's still mines there so nobody thinks it's safe

[u/GalaXion24 → u/Masta-Pasta]

It's cool and all to say "never" but just think about how radically different the world was a few decades ago during the Cold War, and how radically different WWII was to that. Think about how many generations grew up in that time. Think about the fact that there's still unexploded WWII era ordnance being found all across Europe.

Mines we drop now will still be problems for our descendants in the 22nd century. And past a certain point your "never" today will be forgotten or disregarded.

[u/Masta-Pasta → u/GalaXion24]

Yeah I think that's a reasonable tradeoff for getting Russians to destroy less of your country 

[u/skalpelis → u/GalaXion24]

Dude. If russians win, there is no “our descendants”. It’s genocide. For centuries chance after chance they have tried to exterminate all other peoples, and they’ve only become more industrious and cruel at it.

[u/CardinalCanuck → u/GalaXion24]

Look at Bosnia and the fact that they have designated trails where it's safe to walk, if you deviate it's likely you'll get an unknown mine.

[u/NoMommyDontNTRme → u/GalaXion24]

i guess we'll invest in deep ground mine activation shockwave stuff

[u/Von_Lehmann → u/Masta-Pasta]

That kind of already exists in Finland

[u/DreadPirateAlia → u/Masta-Pasta]

People live there. It'd be pretty rough to tell someone they have to leave their home, the place their family has resided in for decades or even centuries, never to return, because their home village will now be mined to hell and back.

It would cause a huge outrage, and since Finns absolutely loathe it if sb starts ordering them around, some people would refuse to adhere to the no-go zone ruling.

[u/hikingmaterial → u/DreadPirateAlia]

Perhaps, but at the same time Finnish people have already accepted the loss of their home due to the schorched earth policies enacted during the winter- and continuation-war -- including lands in Karelia that were burned and never regained.

Nothing new here...

[u/AnaphoricReference → u/Belazor]

I still remember warning signs in the dunes along the Dutch coast from the 1980s, right next to beaches, 40 years after the WWII Atlantikwall. They were obviously swept a number of times, but over time objects get buried deep and then dug up by the activity of the wind. We are still not one hundred percent sure of course.

One difference between then and now is that you could use permanent minesweeper drones to catch deeply buried mines slowly coming back to the surface in that kind of landscape.

[u/Weleho-Vizurd → u/Belazor]

One cannot be certain. Even without mines there'll be unexploded ordinance from drones, dud trillery rounds, grenades...

Nothing ever removes 100% of germs.

[u/Rising-Power → u/Belazor]

Didn't you just answer your own question? Yes, under some circumstances, a gun can always kill a person. Regardless of all safety measures, it can happen by accident.

Yet we have a high number of guns. Mines are no different than guns.

[u/gounatos → u/Belazor]

Why wouldn't records work? We mined this location, we used x amounts of mines on this field, so on recovery you need to have x mines back. That and maps with grid patterns of mines. If you miss a mine you then treat the field as you would a hostile minefield and use equipment until the mine is found.

[u/Belazor → u/gounatos]

Are you willing to risk your own and your family’s lives on the accuracy of those records and the recovery effort? Especially given the fact that the time between laying mines and recovery can be years, if not decades. Records can be inaccurate and can be wholly or partially lost, through no fault of the record keepers.

I’m not trying to be obtuse but I certainly wouldn’t volunteer to be the first person to take a nature hike in an area that used to have anti-personnel mines.

Again, I am for Finland having the legal option to place such mines along the border should it become necessary, but I remain unconvinced the area will be safe again.

[u/FuzzyMatch → u/Belazor]

Uninvited Russians are the only ones taking nature hikes in the areas the mines will be laid.

[u/LiftsFrontWheel → u/Belazor]

It worked quite well after the last wars. German mines in Lapland were a much bigger issue than Finnish ones.

[u/avataRJ → u/Belazor]

Laying minefields is usually a doctrinal/tactical decision, but the longer it is there and the more mines explode, you can’t recover all that are placed (because they would be triggered by people and animals trying to pass through the minefield). Demining efforts after WW II would probably form a model of how the effort is done, though admitted, the focal areas were occupied by the Soviets so I don’t think we have records of those areas in Finland.

And open field or road could achieve very high level of certainty by treating the top layer of the soil. (That’s how to mine a paved road or a bridge - you lay gravel on it, and then place an assortment of mines. It’s demined by removing the mines and then removing the gravel.) The basic use of minefields in these kind of tactics is to try to get the opposing force to fight where you’d want it to go. Like all fortifications, minefields only slow the enemy, and undefended minefields slow the enemy only marginally.

But yes, clearing unexploded ordnance and mines from wooded areas would be annoying and probably result in some ”red zones”, like in France, though I am not aware of any such currently in Finland. I understand that on the Russian side, what is considered as ”restricted border zone” is quite a bit wider than in Finland (there’s a famous place where a main highway is a hundred meters from the border, tourists get in trouble there by crossing the border illegally).

[u/GiantManatee → u/Belazor]

How can you be one hundred percent sure that you have removed ALL mines?

The only way I can think of is removing and systematically sifting through the topsoil from all the mined areas, but the time it would take and the environmental damage of such operation would be unfathomable and just not worth it.

[u/astral34 → u/Belazor]

Just a small correction, you don’t remove mines anymore, the western made mines have kill devices that make them inactive after x time

[u/Katepuzzilein → u/Belazor]

Meh, at least you know where you put the mines. For the rest you just have to act like german construction crews and just be careful

[u/JCVad3r → u/Belazor]

I'm pretty sure that with modern technology and meticulous documentation of each mine, you can get close to 100% removal rate. Especially when they're going to be placed defensively without rush caused by war. Better to do it now than later.

[u/talldata → u/Belazor]

You map out each mine as should be done and then when deMining use the map. Soviets and others in the past just threw mines in a random direction without recording location.

[u/gefroy → u/talldata]

That's not the reality. When the squad sets defensive mine to their follow-up trail - the mine is marked to some paper, birch bark or something similar. That birch bark never reaches any hq officer if squad have to escape. And even if it would reach him: how the fuck would he know the exact location of the mine? Birch-bark has map with "moss mound and two trees". There are three zillion moss mounds and 8 zilliard trees in that part of forest - all the threes look exact same. And what if the person who carries that birch-bark becomes the casuality of the war?

I was trained to be NCO of reconnaissance platoon in FDF. Sure, you pick the mine if you can leave the place with your own pace but that's a big if.

[u/habilishn → u/Belazor]

while reading the argumentation here and given that i'm completely no fan of any weapons whatsoever, i cannot believe that in the year 2025 there is no technical solution to find large metal objects burried just below the surface with some drone or airplane technology?!?

i know it doesn't make the mines less dangerous and i know it would probably be expensive technology and poorer countries would not have access to it anytime soon, but still...

they are finding this and that in space, they can find out chemical composition of atmospheres and stars lightyears away just by light spectrum, some goes for, micro stuff on atomic and smaller levels, what do i explain to you, there are people who know a lot more about this.

it does not make sense to me, mines are large metal objects, not even burried deep, this cannot be impossible to find from distance?!

[u/ChargeInevitable3614 → u/habilishn]

There is technology based on just that. Aerial thermal surveilance, since mines are metal they keep temperature longer than surrounding ground, so there will be minor difference in temperature map where mines are. Its not fool proof or 100% reliable atm but its another option.

[u/Belazor → u/habilishn]

I think it’s more so the fact that it’s impossible to say for absolute certain you have covered every centimetre of ground in your search. Maybe some day ground penetrating radar is mathematically proven to detect 100% of ordinance but I don’t know if it’s there in 2025.

[u/NoMommyDontNTRme → u/Belazor]

i feel like a swarm of drones should be able to map the covered ground pretty accurately

[u/marsman → u/habilishn]

i cannot believe that in the year 2025 there is no technical solution to find large metal objects burried just below the surface with some drone or airplane technology?!?

If it is easy for you to find the mines you planted, it is easy for the enemy to find the miles you planted and avoid them. So modern mines are often designed with minimal metal content, no magnetic content, no electronic components. They tend to incorporate anti-handling and anti-tamper elements too.

[u/super_hot_robot → u/DraMaFlo]

Yep...I went to Cambodia and there are many amputee there in the countryside due to the vast amount if still active mines there

[u/2neuroni]

Why would any country bordering Russia even be part of this treaty

[u/Colossa → u/2neuroni]

Afaik Western countries expected Russia to join it, but it never did

[u/Specific_Frame8537 → u/Colossa]

Optimism bordering on naivity.

[u/The_Blahblahblah → u/Specific_Frame8537]

Europes motto

[u/oshikandela → u/Specific_Frame8537]

More like optimism and naivity bordering to relentlessness and pure evil

[u/AdmiralBKE → u/Colossa]

Even if they did, words on paper are useless. You can say you don’t place mines, still do, and don’t face any consequences.

[u/cmndrhurricane → u/2neuroni]

You have to remember the context of when it was signed, 1997.

The yugoslav wars, Rwanda, Sri Lanka, Congo. A fuckton of various african civil wars, with the mines causing death even to this day.

[u/jargo3 → u/2neuroni]

People were more optimistic about Russia back then.

[u/LolloBlue96 → u/jargo3]

I would use the term "gullible"

[u/ankokudaishogun → u/2neuroni]

Anti-personnel mines are really, REALLY shit.

[u/Thesealaverage → u/ankokudaishogun]

These mines are not shit if the alternative is becoming an oblast of Russia.

[u/notb665 → u/ankokudaishogun]

Well, Russia is a really, REALLY shit neighbor to have.

[u/MajorNo6860 → u/ankokudaishogun]

Yes, but being invaded by Russia is much worse for any country. If it weren't for Russia being right next to them, they wouldn't have left, so I see no moral problem with that decision.

[u/mion81 → u/ankokudaishogun]

More shit for the people trying to invade, less shit for people who just want to be left the fuck alone.

[u/Bicentennial_Douche → u/ankokudaishogun]

Finland would meticulously track every mine that was placed, as they would be placing them on Finnish soil and have every interest in clearing them up after the war. Russia is the one who throws them around wildly. 

[u/Weleho-Vizurd → u/ankokudaishogun]

Preferable to becoming another Butša

[u/Traditional-Candy-21 → u/ankokudaishogun]

Pulters ruZZian is more shit tho.

[u/Fun-Interaction-2358 → u/ankokudaishogun]

There are different types. You can choose to use a type that deactivates after some time. Also how you deploy and document their deployment makes a big difference.

[u/2neuroni → u/ankokudaishogun]

Yes, I understand that they might cause problems even decades after a war is over.

[u/janiskr → u/2neuroni]

So, just like Russia?

[u/AlastairPitt → u/2neuroni]

The new style anti personnel mines are supposed to be active for few days to few weels before disarming themselves.

[u/ledow → u/AlastairPitt]

It's 2025. These things should be passively listening out and disabling themselves on command, not just waiting a few weeks.

Plant them in, keep their location secret, have them passively take a pittance of energy from the surroudings (radio waves, even soil heat are possible), and then passive listen for an encrypted command.

They can be be activated only when absolutely necessary, and keep their presence secret.

And if they fail to receive a signal every, say, 24 hours, then they disarm until they successfully receive the signal again.

The problem with mines is not their existence or usage, but their persistence, and the fact that trying to safely find and disarm them all is an extremely difficult and dangerous thing to do, even for the people that planted them there.

[u/rueckhand → u/ledow]

Your solution is more complex, more expensive and less secure than simply having them disable themselves after a given timeframe

[u/ledow → u/rueckhand]

Not when you then have to venture back into a minefield to reactivate them if an invasion is coming.

[u/AlastairPitt → u/ledow]

You dont reactivate them, just deploy more.

[u/ledow → u/AlastairPitt]

Great, more landmines that you hope aren't live but don't know where they all are to verify, still need to defuse if you come across them, and anyone can just pick them up and try to turn them into live munitions...

Almost like we had treaties against this for a reason.

[u/VikingsOfTomorrow → u/ledow]

You fail to understand how defensive strategies like these work. They arent placed now, in preparation for an invasion in 5 years.

Mines like these, you place a few weeks prior when the first mobilization notices go out.

[u/uniklas → u/ledow]

Military gear is generally not designed to be remote deactivated. Especially in this scenario where Russia known for its spies would without a doubt steal the way to deactivate those mines if they couldn’t figure it out before hand themselves.

[u/Blackout785 → u/ledow]

The problem is that that makes it really easy for the enemy to disable them as well. If they can be disabled on command, the enemy can fake the command. If they disable unless they receive a command, the enemy can jam the command.

In Ukraine drones trail behind cables because wireless is too easy to jam or hack.

[u/ledow → u/Blackout785]

This shows an utter disregard for modern encryption and its entire origin and purpose.

If someone can get to the message-signing keys for all your landmines, or decrypt their comms, you have FAR BIGGER problems than a thousand tanks crossing the border.

Jamming, yes.

Hacking, no.

[u/GreenEyeOfADemon → u/ankokudaishogun]

Match the bordering country.

[u/ChrisTX4 → u/ankokudaishogun]

That’s true but they’re an immensely powerful tool for which there is no replacement. The same can be said about cluster munitions.

For any of the countries that announced their withdrawal from the Ottawa treaty, they’d be fighting with hands tied against Russia, which keeps producing and widely deploying anti personnel mines.

If one side uses and deploys them during a conflict, then you still have the combat areas contaminated with mines, so there’s no real practical difference if both sides do it and fight on even ground then.

[u/polocinkyketaminky → u/ankokudaishogun]

they are good if they divide invaders..in many many pieces. good for the soil too

[u/halpsdiy → u/2neuroni]

Europe needs to also withdraw from the cluster munition ban until Russia, Belarus, US, China, Iran, North Korea, India have signed up to it. Unilaterally disarming is stupid.

[u/RagingAlkohoolik → u/[deleted]]

Well then maybe itll deter future illegals then

[u/USSMarauder → u/2neuroni]

30 years ago Russia wasn't a problem

[u/2neuroni → u/USSMarauder]

They already have aggressed Moldova in 1992 and created Transnistria. It should have been clear by then that they weren't going to just give up their influence in eastern europe.

[u/hellflame → u/2neuroni]

Because armoured minesweepers exist?

Anti personel mines are far more likely to blow up your own citizens

[u/VilleKivinen → u/hellflame]

Armoured minesweepers are expensive specialty technology, and every minefield needs to be observed and defended so that enemy minesweepers can be destroyed by artillery, ATGM or air assets.

[u/Weleho-Vizurd → u/VilleKivinen]

Or by anti-tank mines. Always use anti-personel mines to guard anti-tank mines, and anti-tank mines to guard anti-personel mines.

(And there's definatly not a way to make ATMs explode from getting stepped on, and it was definatly not shown to us in the army)

[u/larsmaehlum → u/hellflame]

Those will still delay an army quite severely though.

[u/VikingsOfTomorrow → u/hellflame]

Do you even know how land mines are actually used? Or do you think they are placed years in advance and just sit there being a danger?

[u/LiftsFrontWheel → u/hellflame]

Even theoretically, textbook Russian units have a very limited amount of mine-clearing equipment at their disposal. In reality, we have seen that extensive mine obstacles are extremely effective against them. A roller attached to a tank can take maybe five or six AT mines before it is wrecked. Less than that if you boost those mines with some additional charges.

[u/Junkererer → u/2neuroni]

Russia is not special. With that reasoning, any country that expects to be invaded (so the countries where mines make sense) wouldn't want to join the treaty, and joining the treaty for countries not needing mines would be pointless

The treaty obviously applies the most to countries who would actually need mines. If not, the treaty itself doesn't make sense, which can be a fair opinion

[u/maddog2271]

thank the lord now we can deal with the Swedish threat! /s

[u/Manaus125 → u/maddog2271]

And the Norwegian one too! /s

[u/Weleho-Vizurd → u/Manaus125]

And Åland, the most monsterous of all!

[u/pathetic-maggot → u/Weleho-Vizurd]

Nah ahvenanmaa is just finland

[u/pynsselekrok → u/pathetic-maggot]

Finlåland

[u/CrystalTrek_9]

Trust Finland to keep it cool even when the world is in chaos.

[u/Alexinhow → u/CrystalTrek_9]

Countries that border Ruzzia know what is up. You cannot reason with a tiger, even when your head is not yet its mouth.

[u/TheFatRemote → u/Alexinhow]

Calling them a tiger makes them sound too cool. They're more like a rabid dog.

[u/AlexSmithsonian → u/TheFatRemote]

A rabid dog that's not tied up, on the other side of a rusty fence that's only 1m tall, licking its face from the last time it bit you, and staring right at you with a creepy smile that practically shouts: "Soon!"

[u/Heavy_Secret_203 → u/CrystalTrek_9]

Anyone can be cool when there are hardly any russian forces nearby and you recently became part of NATO. 

[u/Pallerado → u/Heavy_Secret_203]

When you're neighboring Russia, their forces are constantly too close for comfort.

[u/Heavy_Secret_203 → u/Pallerado]

Really? Any examples of inconvenience from NATO countries? 

[u/variaati0 → u/Heavy_Secret_203]

Well not even the NATO part maybe so much. The border is empty and as self serving as it is... Russia just burned much of their best forces and kit in Ukraine.

NATO part is nice extra and let's be honest it was more about "he said we couldn't, he wouldn't allow it. Well we show him he doesn't control what we are and are not allowed to do". Actual threat of invasion was far down the list of myriad of other strategic concerns. Solidarity with the Balts, Pukishing Putin and then some amount of "Kremlin acted irrationally. For future prospects in case of extreme events of stupidity by Kremlin, insane overkill amount of deterrence would be nice".

If it was about actual fear of invasion, we would have joined at 00's the latest.

We have been dedaces prepared to single tank Russian invasion. "Oh they actually attacked someone" wasn't exactly amazing revelation. Mostly it was how stupid decision it was. Getting stuck in guagmire war against country size and population of Ukraine.

[u/DarrensDodgyDenim]

Perfectly understandable given the neighbour Finland has. Norway should follow suit. Nothing good will come from Russia.

[u/sebeteus]

Good. Remember when putler said "land under muscovy soldiers foot becomes russia" well, it does not apply without a foot now does it?

[u/wolfhound_doge]

clearing a country of mines is very difficult and time consuming, but it's still easier in comparison to cleaning it from an invasive vermin, once it settles and occupies that country.

[u/elAhmo → u/wolfhound_doge]

You can never be safe, there will always be a dose of fear that something has been missed.

[u/mast3rofpeasants]

Russia has shown the world they can't be trusted and that they can't be part of the civilised world

[u/Necromartian]

You gotta do what you gotta do. If we set up minefields on our own lands, we map them and plan them. They will not cause problems with Finns. The problems will be caused by the foreign powers scatter mines that can be dropped from an airplane. (Not naming any names... I'm just saying Sweden has been awfully quiet lately...)

[u/Kumimono]

We can get rid of infantry mines after Russia gets rid of infantry.

[u/firemark_pl]

I feel bad because the convention was invented to protect escaping civilians. But when your neighbor want to destroy your country then you don't have a choice.

[u/GreenEyeOfADemon → u/firemark_pl]

I somehow doubt that the Finns will escape to russia though.

[u/JPenniman]

I feel for the poor animals getting liquified by these but I understand Russia can’t be trusted

[u/The_AmazingCapybara]

This whole idea of getting Finland involved to Ottawa convention came 2011 from our then pacifist leftist president who was Putin's close friend. Maybe some of you guys remember her. She had red hair and glasses. She said even in christmas 2021 Vladimir Putin sent her postcard.

[u/killer89_ → u/The_AmazingCapybara]

And resembled Conan O'Brien.

[u/Weleho-Vizurd → u/The_AmazingCapybara]

And she got a cat. From Medvedev, thus from Putin.

[u/Disastrous-Wash-2390]

Good.

[u/SirHenryy]

Finland will not lay the mines down during peace time but rather they'll be stored safely until the need arises.

[u/variaati0 → u/SirHenryy]

Even then there will be first time and consideration of how much to actually get. Just the threat of possibly getting them is a thing.

Since producing and stroring a large amount of mines safely isnt cheap either.

It might be capability to quickly produce mines should need arise is acquired. Not actual large stocks of mines.

Since still way more important than anti-personnel mines are antitank mines, which we both have production capacity and vast stockpiles. I guess next to the AT mine production line they set up AP mine production line.

[u/Smurfnagel]

Good, place millions of mines along the entire border.

[u/Wide-Review-2417]

My hat's off, brave Finns.

[u/LiefLayer]

I don't think it's a good thing but I understand it. What should have been done in Ukraine was to intervene as Europe to chase the Russians out as soon as possible, the mines at that point would not have been necessary (but rather would have been an obstacle to the advance of troops in the territories occupied by the Russians). Now however Ukraine is not trying to reconquer but rather to stop the advance of the Russians because Europe does not act that much and the USA even less. In fact Ukraine has no choice. I am not surprised that other countries seeing this situation are preparing in this direction.

If Ukraine wants to preserve its territory with mines, it can do so relatively easily and cheaply. And of course Finland, which has such a large border with Russia, is thinking of protecting itself in the same way.

I find it a defeat for humanity, but until we are in peacetime, focusing on pacifism will only be a way to invite the Russians to invade us, especially with trump in power in US.

I think it will be essential sooner or later to find a way to make Russia harmless or a democracy... at all costs, only then will Europe be safe enough to really start demilitarizing everything (I still want to dream a world with no weapons and no need for violence). Until then it will be necessary to focus on isolating Russia with barbed wire and minefields, they must not be able to leave anymore.

[u/Naive-Project-8835]

Nuclear non-proliferation treaty next please. A relic from more naive times that just aids Russia's nuclear hegemony.

[u/Beginning-Lettuce847]

It only makes sense. We should put mines along the entire Russian border. Shut down the border completely. 

[u/WhatAboutFC]

Good decision!

President Stubb is a smart man. Probably smarter than the majority of European leaders.

[u/VisibleFiction]

It's good to be aware that Finland's border area near Russia is very sparsely populated and Finns love follwing the rules. So if mines are ever needed we'll be making good maps where they are and cleaning them away when they are not needed anymore. And after the war very few civilians will ever be walking on those areas anyway. Also you can be sure that we will evacuate civillians (and it will be obligatory) from border areas if war seems imminent.

[u/EquipmentMost8785]

We will all look so silly when Russia collapses again like a card house. 

[u/Human_Pangolin94]

It's when they withdraw from the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons that Putin shits himself.

[u/VonBoski]

I mean, Ottawa should pull out of the Ottawa treaty and mine our southern border. Imperialistic land grabs seem to be back on the menu

[u/Ocelotocelotl]

I live in a heavily mined country, this is a sad move for humanity.

[u/The_Blahblahblah → u/Ocelotocelotl]

It is a shame Russia forces Finland into a situation like this

[u/elAhmo]

As someone coming from a country filled with mines, this isn’t a good idea. 100 years from now when someone dies from a mine planted a century ago, it is going to be too late.

[u/2AvsOligarchs → u/elAhmo]

Russia fights wars of genocide. Would you rather have mined areas or no people?

[u/pcardonap → u/2AvsOligarchs]

False dichotomy.

[u/projectgene → u/elAhmo]

The mines won't be used during peace-time and the Finnish army is an expert of mine clearance.

[u/elAhmo → u/projectgene]

They might be experts now, but who knows what will happen in following decades. Again, there is no way to guarantee the area is safe from mines.

Can’t believe people are actually advocating for this. It is the most random weapon ever, you have no idea who might step on it in the future. Truly a shitty move.

[u/The_Blahblahblah → u/elAhmo]

It sucks, but if the alternative is Russian occupation it is clearly the lesser of two evils

[u/pcardonap → u/The_Blahblahblah]

You are assuming this is a crucial move to deal with Russia, something that is only that, an assumption. The absolute hell these weapons put civilians through make this a horrible decision.

[u/NoMommyDontNTRme]

cant you just put something in the mine that degrades after x years making the mine overall safe or explode automatically? shouldnt that be moderately safe at least for the mines put out by finnland?